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Grade 3 with smoke alarms?


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Hi guys,

 

I'm currently in the process of upgrading my home alarm system to a grade 3 system. It is a Texecom Premier Elite 48. I will be posting further questions regarding PIR sensors, but that Isn't for this post.

PLEASE do not question the upgrade - just trust it is needed (and I do have a professional I consult, however even he is unsure on this issue).

 

I am wondering - if the system is grade 3, is it still allowed to be a fire alarm system or am I required to disconnect the smoke detectors, and install a separate fire alarm system?

 

Many thanks for your input,

John

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43 minutes ago, neon555 said:

Hi guys,

 

I'm currently in the process of upgrading my home alarm system to a grade 3 system. It is a Texecom Premier Elite 48. I will be posting further questions regarding PIR sensors, but that Isn't for this post.

PLEASE do not question the upgrade - just trust it is needed (and I do have a professional I consult, however even he is unsure on this issue).

 

I am wondering - if the system is grade 3, is it still allowed to be a fire alarm system or am I required to disconnect the smoke detectors, and install a separate fire alarm system?

 

Many thanks for your input,

John

So do you mean this is a DIY install or house bashers install and need it to be installed to grade 3 spec? And as mentioned it maybe grade three equipment and installation but obviously needs grade 3 Comms to be fully compliant to the gorilla world

 

?

25 minutes ago, MrHappy said:

Unless your "grade 3" alarm is connected to an arc is not grade 3 ;)

 

 

Can it be keyholder only on grade 3

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47 minutes ago, MrHappy said:

Unless your "grade 3" alarm is connected to an arc is not grade 3 ;)

 

 

It also has to be certified and under a service contract by an accredited company otherwise its just grade 1

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5 hours ago, PeterJames said:

It also has to be certified and under a service contract by an accredited company otherwise its just grade 1

None of this makes sense you gorillas , installs can be fitted to grade 3 spec it's only the insurers you need to worry about and if you don't need them , no reason why not to install to that level of you want to 

 

So can grade 3 be keyholder only ?

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4 hours ago, al-yeti said:

None of this makes sense you gorillas , installs can be fitted to grade 3 spec it's only the insurers you need to worry about and if you don't need them , no reason why not to install to that level of you want to 

 

So can grade 3 be keyholder only ?

No, grade 3 is Monitored with Police response and in order to do this has to be under a service contract with an accredited company. The grading is always defined by the lowest denominator and so that would be defined by the service contract, none = grade 1.

 

As you know a grade 3 is not in any way necessarily any more secure than a well installed grade 2 system. The door contacts are the biggest downfall to the reliability of grade 3. Personally I would always argue the necessity for full grade 3.

 

The idea of grading was so that there was more clarity between the insurance companies and the installers. It didnt really work because insurers who do not understand the technology will always take the highest number to be the best, which you and I both know is not the idea of grading. The problem is not all installers are the same and so the insure cannot trust the installer to install the correct devices in the right environment, because unfortunately some are clueless, or employ clueless surveyors. Sad when you think of it, this industry could be so much better.

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Smoke detection in yhis case would be classed as ancillary devices and would not need to be disconnected. 

However they are not the same as a 5839 fire alarm. But i have smokes and Co on my own alarm

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31 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

No, grade 3 is Monitored with Police response and in order to do this has to be under a service contract with an accredited company. The grading is always defined by the lowest denominator and so that would be defined by the service contract, none = grade 1.

 

As you know a grade 3 is not in any way necessarily any more secure than a well installed grade 2 system. The door contacts are the biggest downfall to the reliability of grade 3. Personally I would always argue the necessity for full grade 3.

 

The idea of grading was so that there was more clarity between the insurance companies and the installers. It didnt really work because insurers who do not understand the technology will always take the highest number to be the best, which you and I both know is not the idea of grading. The problem is not all installers are the same and so the insure cannot trust the installer to install the correct devices in the right environment, because unfortunately some are clueless, or employ clueless surveyors. Sad when you think of it, this industry could be so much better.

You alarm gorillas know your stuff eh

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12 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Fire alarm systems need to conform to BS5839 which intruder alarm systems on there own aren't designed for.

 

I'm sure you all know this, but the benefit of the OP, it IS at a push possible for an intruder based system to comply under BS5939-6 though as Grade C, 

Quote

System consisting of fire detectors and alarm sounders (which may be domestic smoke alarms) connected to a common power supply, comprising normal mains and stand-by supply, with central control equipment.

 

The PSU standby times are onerous and would be unlikely to be met by anything other than (in my world) an I-On 160 with twin 17aH batteries on board. But it does basically allow an IAS (or anything really, other than the standby length it does not specify the CCE must meet any EN or be a certain type of equipment as that would be Grade B IIRC). I've previously had IAS based systems, with standard batteries e.g shorter standby on new builds waived through by BC on the basis of first years monitoring and cover included, so any faults will be acted upon, not ignored.

 

As far as fire on a Grade 3, leaving out the issue of 'why is OP doing DIY to G3' I don't see the issue with this as it does not form part of the intrusion detection, it's surely an ancilliary same as connecting a freezer or other technical alarm?

Edited by datadiffusion

So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands

 

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5 minutes ago, datadiffusion said:

 

 

As far as fire on a Grade 3, leaving out the issue of 'why is OP doing DIY to G3' I don't see the issue with this as it does not form part of the intrusion detection, it's surely an ancilliary same as connecting a freezer or other technical alarm?

Using all grade 3 kit and installing it to grade 3 is fine but you cant call it grade 3, in the same way as if we installed a grade 3 system and put a grade 2 door contact on it, it then becomes grade 2. Not a problem unless something happens and the insurer wants to see the cert 

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But fire detectors and freezer alarm contacts are not graded at all, as they are not intruder componenrts to PD6662?

 

I appreciate I am not approved, but surely a graded system doesn't mean you can't have ancilliaries that don't form part of the intruder system?

 

Are there really no Grade 3 (or Grade 2 for that matter) systems out there with technical and freezer alarms attatched?

So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands

 

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1 hour ago, james.wilson said:

If a lower graded i&has part is fitted to an i&has then it lowers the overall grade

 

Yep just for clarity I'm fine with, and understand that, just confused that we seemed to be saying you basically can't fit ANY ancilliaries or monitored input devices to a graded system.

Edited by datadiffusion

So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands

 

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47 minutes ago, datadiffusion said:

 

Yep just for clarity I'm fine with, and understand that, just confused that we seemed to be saying you basically can't fit ANY ancilliaries or monitored input devices to a graded system.

Ancillaries do not effect the grade of the intruder, grade is effected only by intruder components  

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43 minutes ago, james.wilson said:

Intruder and hold up

 

Ah fair enough, I thought it was a spazzy typing of IAS ;)

 

42 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

Ancillaries do not effect the grade of the intruder, grade is effected only by intruder components  

 

Right thats fine I just thought you were saying something different when you said "Using all grade 3 kit and installing it to grade 3 is fine but you cant call it grade 3,", wrt to fire detectors. Obviously the installation isn't really grade 3 if its DIYed but that's the whole reason I'm still confused why anyone would want to.

So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands

 

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1 hour ago, datadiffusion said:

 

Ah fair enough, I thought it was a spazzy typing of IAS ;)

 

 

Right thats fine I just thought you were saying something different when you said "Using all grade 3 kit and installing it to grade 3 is fine but you cant call it grade 3,", wrt to fire detectors. Obviously the installation isn't really grade 3 if its DIYed but that's the whole reason I'm still confused why anyone would want to.

Agreed, you can put lipstick on a pig and call it your wife, but its still a pig

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Depending on the system I much prefer the Aico low voltage option now. I would consider for it to be an auxiliary/ancillary it should have some way to function on it's own, which is not the case with your standard 12v smoke.

I would argue that the fire detector being considered ancillary is not a good idea, ancillary by definition makes it less important than the system it's ancillary to.

 

 

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50 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Depending on the system I much prefer the Aico low voltage option now. I would consider for it to be an auxiliary/ancillary it should have some way to function on it's own, which is not the case with your standard 12v smoke.

I would argue that the fire detector being considered ancillary is not a good idea, ancillary by definition makes it less important than the system it's ancillary to.

 

 

Do texe have a wireless with built in sounder?

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