blackfish Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I've been asked to look at a panel (presumed for now to be M-Series). It's five years old and has started generating alerts for panel battery low. I can fit a new battery but am reluctant to take the panel lid off as I don't know if I'll need eng code to reset tamper. It was a new build house and a contractor installed alarms in all the properties. There was no maintenance contract as far as I know. The default eng code (1234) has no effect (assuming you just enter the code from normal unset state) so presume installer changed it.Lots of questions here so any help from professionals is welcome.Q1: Is it incumbent on the installer to tell the owner the eng code on request; i.e. does the eng code belong to the owner?Q2: If installer says the eng code is some sort of master that they use for other alarms, can the owner insist that the installer revert the code to default 1234? (at no cost to owner for site visit).Q3: Am I right in suspecting that by default, a tamper will need eng reset?Q4: If so and I don't have the eng code, what's the consequence; e.g. is the system useless until reset?Q5: If I tried a factory reset and find the NVM is locked, are the two options (a) get the original installer to reset (with call-out cost) or (b) send panel to Menvier (with repair cost)?Q6: If Factory Reset did work, I know I'd have to sort out zones/wards/attributes, etc. I've got a list of zones from the user menus: 8 are straight off the panel. Two more are off the RKP (1011 PAB near front door, 1012 switch on front door). There's also a PAB in the bedroom, zone 2011 - how's that likely to be connected? Could there be a LEC2 expansion module and if so, where is it? (inside the main box?). Zone resistances are around 2.2k so I presume it's set up with FSL using 4K7/2K2 resistors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) I've been asked to look at a panel (presumed for now to be M-Series). It's five years old and has started generating alerts for panel battery low. I can fit a new battery but am reluctant to take the panel lid off as I don't know if I'll need eng code to reset tamper. It was a new build house and a contractor installed alarms in all the properties. There was no maintenance contract as far as I know. The default eng code (1234) has no effect (assuming you just enter the code from normal unset state) so presume installer changed it. Lots of questions here so any help from professionals is welcome. Q1: Is it incumbent on the installer to tell the owner the eng code on request; i.e. does the eng code belong to the owner? No Q2: If installer says the eng code is some sort of master that they use for other alarms, can the owner insist that the installer revert the code to default 1234? (at no cost to owner for site visit). No Q3: Am I right in suspecting that by default, a tamper will need eng reset? Not necessarily Q4: If so and I don't have the eng code, what's the consequence; e.g. is the system useless until reset? Yes Q5: If I tried a factory reset and find the NVM is locked, are the two options (a) get the original installer to reset (with call-out cost) or (b) send panel to Menvier (with repair cost)? Not sure you can lock down the M series, I doubt it. Q6: If Factory Reset did work, I know I'd have to sort out zones/wards/attributes, etc. I've got a list of zones from the user menus: 8 are straight off the panel. Two more are off the RKP (1011 PAB near front door, 1012 switch on front door). There's also a PAB in the bedroom, zone 2011 - how's that likely to be connected? Could there be a LEC2 expansion module and if so, where is it? (inside the main box?). Zone resistances are around 2.2k so I presume it's set up with FSL using 4K7/2K2 resistors. No idea without looking @ the paperwork or being on site. Worth every penny to get the system fully checked by a competent company, bearing in mind the value of the asset it's protecting (or not in this case!!) Edited October 2, 2015 by norman Quote Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Not sure you can lock the M series Lockable, when selected it won't default Resistor values are selectable on the M Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Oh, in that case the answer to Q5 is yes... Quote Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) I had a funny dealing, on the 'M' also that 'lid tamper' inc case and modules was always an eng reset event? Whilst of course you could set zone tamper to user... Not sure if that's right but had a play with an M600 last week prior to scrapping. Edited October 2, 2015 by datadiffusion Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJames Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Q2 do you work for nothing? If so do you want a job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secureiam Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) Depends on how far you want to take this, I am only aware of 1 person making a legal challenge (so they say) because the engineer wouldnt release the engineers code/ or reset it to the default. Based on that case I would say it is possible to make the engineer change the engineers code and provide it to the end user. However I would expect a fee to be paid, that fee should be inline with there fees to attend site and perform a minimum duty, as the process is short it should not cost any more than there minimum. Any system where the engineers code is disclosed to the end user loses their right to any warranty that would normally be offered. In my opinion it would be unreasonable for an engineer to disclose an engineers code that compromises all his systems, or for any system they are offering any guarantee or responsible for. All my clients that request the engineers code are told that by doing so there is no warranty as I can not guarantee the integrity of the system it then becomes a choice. The engineers code where its displayed in full prior to being changed, is changed before the end user changes it to their preferred code. That is reflected on their receipt. I went and fixed a system last week changed the engineers code, the customer said and I quote "I want the engineers code so I can maintain the system". Which you may consider a bit strange because they were playing around with the system, got it in a mess and called me to sort it out in the first place. Fine, I changed the engineers code to the default and let them change it to something else (they let the property), showed the system working and advised them that beyond that I can accept no liability for any future issue as I have no control of the system. The codes can be defaulted on that system even if its a ball ache by a competent installer. My customer is always right, but as a result of their decision may lose some of their rights to warranty. You simply cant expect an engineer to be responsible for a system if the end user has access to the engineers code. Edited October 2, 2015 by secureiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al-yeti Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Depends on how far you want to take this, I am only aware of 1 person making a legal challenge (so they say) because the engineer wouldnt release the engineers code/ or reset it to the default. Based on that case I would say it is possible to make the engineer change the engineers code and provide it to the end user. However I would expect a fee to be paid, that fee should be inline with there fees to attend site and perform a minimum duty, as the process is short it should not cost any more than there minimum. Any system where the engineers code is disclosed to the end user loses their right to any warranty that would normally be offered. In my opinion it would be unreasonable for an engineer to disclose an engineers code that compromises all his systems, or for any system they are offering any guarantee or responsible for. All my clients that request the engineers code are told that by doing so there is no warranty as I can not guarantee the integrity of the system it then becomes a choice. The engineers code where its displayed in full prior to being changed, is changed before the end user changes it to their preferred code. That is reflected on their receipt. I went and fixed a system last week changed the engineers code, the customer said and I quote "I want the engineers code so I can maintain the system". Which you may consider a bit strange because they were playing around with the system, got it in a mess and called me to sort it out in the first place. Fine, I changed the engineers code to the default and let them change it to something else (they let the property), showed the system working and advised them that beyond that I can accept no liability for any future issue as I have no control of the system. The codes can be defaulted on that system even if its a ball ache by a competent installer. My customer is always right, but as a result of their decision may lose some of their rights to warranty. You simply cant expect an engineer to be responsible for a system if the end user has access to the engineers code. So does this mean every electronic piece of equipment should have there engineers access unlocked for jp to openly to have? Not talking about what's available in internet So from washing machines to tv's to alarms fire etc etc as long as there is a fee paid everyone should hand over the access to the engineers menus, coolio Should be fee based , and based upon another maintainer asking for it and they bill the customer and pay you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Alarm subscribers.... As a rule of thumb if the incoming co. needs wet nursing by the out going co. so they can support the system you may find you picked the wrong people to look after your alarm Quote Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Alarm subscribers.... As a rule of thumb if the incoming co. needs wet nursing by the out going co. so they can support the system you may find you picked the wrong people to look after your alarm qfa Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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