Grade 4

[Nc91 0]

Currently doing a tender for a project where the specification states a grade 4 system. Can anybody point me in the direction of any manufacturers that actually make grade 4 equipment? 

[al-yeti 596]

59 minutes ago, Nc91 said:

Currently doing a tender for a project where the specification states a grade 4 system. Can anybody point me in the direction of any manufacturers that actually make grade 4 equipment? 

Not my area but the monkeys have discussed this , I assume there still is grade 4 euiqpment and it's more to do with signalling perhaps

[whistle 61]

Are you sure it’s not just asking for grade 4 signing?

[MrHappy 1,864]

5 hours ago, Nc91 said:

Currently doing a tender for a project where the specification states a grade 4 system. Can anybody point me in the direction of any manufacturers that actually make grade 4 equipment? 

 

UK ?

[PeterJames 731]

Must be the signalling, but quite often the people asking for the grade are not the ones that know what they are talking about, I tendered for a school extension a little while back spec said G3 the existing kit was G2, the architect didn't understand me when I explained that adding G3 kit to a G2 system makes it all G2 so what he was asking for was just daft.

[MrHappy 1,864]

40 minutes ago, PeterJames said:

the architect

 

the spec or drawings normally lists all the BS std's

 

normally they state all former ones which are often over a decade out of date,

 

yet they get paid quite a bit to design...

[PeterJames 731]

27 minutes ago, MrHappy said:

 

the spec or drawings normally lists all the BS std's

 

normally they state all former ones which are often over a decade out of date,

 

yet they get paid quite a bit to design...

Yep a whole lot of the stuff is cut and paste bull too 

[whistle 61]

Regularly get asked for NACOS and redcare.

Edited June 16, 2020 by whistle

[PeterJames 731]

13 minutes ago, whistle said:

Regularly get asked for NACOS and redcare.

You can send the ones asking for Nacoss my why if you like LOL

[spider 0]

Was this for a military installation?

[Andyha 9]

There are no grade 4 IAS panels on the commercial off the shelf market in the UK.

 

Grade 4 is only available to Government/Military who need an additional level of security.

 

There are very few (like 2) grade 4 detectors - also not available as COTs

 

Assume it is for signalling only or ask for a Threat and Risk Assessment that informs a G4 solution.

 

[MrHappy 1,864]

28 minutes ago, Andyha said:

There are no grade 4 IAS panels on the commercial off the shelf market in the UK.

 

Grade 4 is only available to Government/Military who need an additional level of security.

 

There are very few (like 2) grade 4 detectors - also not available as COTs

 

Assume it is for signalling only or ask for a Threat and Risk Assessment that informs a G4 solution.

 

good info

[Nova-Security 122]

59 minutes ago, Andyha said:

There are no grade 4 IAS panels on the commercial off the shelf market in the UK.

 

Grade 4 is only available to Government/Military who need an additional level of security.

 

There are very few (like 2) grade 4 detectors - also not available as COTs

 

Assume it is for signalling only or ask for a Threat and Risk Assessment that informs a G4 solution.

 

 

 

PACOM ACHIEVES HIGHEST EUROPEAN SECURITY GRADE FOR INTRUSION DETECTION EN50131 GRADE 4 APPROVAL. PACOM SYSTEMS® are pleased to announce the 8002 Intelligent Field Controller and associated devices have been awarded EN50131 Grade 4 approval – the highest European standard for intruder alarm securityand signalling. 

 

As for detectors Siemens do a grade 4 (never seen one )

 

A grade 3 system correctly installed would surfice any building with ATS 4/5

 

CPNI approved detectors are just as rare. 

 

Just seen this is public so taken a lot out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterJames 731]

1 hour ago, Nova-Security said:

 

 

PACOM ACHIEVES HIGHEST EUROPEAN SECURITY GRADE FOR INTRUSION DETECTION EN50131 GRADE 4 APPROVAL. PACOM SYSTEMS® are pleased to announce the 8002 Intelligent Field Controller and associated devices have been awarded EN50131 Grade 4 approval – the highest European standard for intruder alarm securityand signalling. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never really thought PACOM panels were all that, they just look and feel really cheap. We have played with a few in ex banks even arming/disarming them is a bit of a vote of no confidence

1 hour ago, Nova-Security said:

 

 

Just seen this is public so taken a lot out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It just means that jeff cant see it or comment LOL

[Andyha 9]

There was, I think, a bit of an issue with COTs G4 panels being self assessed at G4 as opposed to being independently tested.

There was also an issue with detectors which have to be mapped to the panel at G4 I believe, so a detector from manufacturer A would not work with manufacturer B's alarm panel because of the encrypted protocol exchange between the two.

It's interesting that some believe G3 is OTT and inappropriately specified by architects and engineers alike - heaven help us all if G4 became the base standard for all those who just pick the highest number from the standard because it must be the best

So it's just as well there's very few G4 systems available and a very constrained supply chain at that

[james.wilson 783]

System standard vs component standard are very different things. 

 

At the moment using components to Gx makes a system, however you seem to be advocating a system standard which we dont currently have? 

[Nova-Security 122]

8 hours ago, Andyha said:

 

There was also an issue with detectors which have to be mapped to the panel at G4 I believe, so a detector from manufacturer A would not work with manufacturer B's alarm panel because of the encrypted protocol exchange between the two.

 

 

Only every company I have heard of that was developing a G4 detector that sit on the control panel data BUS was risco, but this was when the Grading first came out. Iam glad they didnt make one would have been a joke.

 

Worked in a few banks where they have PACOM panels, and the detectors are still 1980s C+K dualtecs which must be wired EOL as they wont have any sort of data bus between the two. 

 

Encrypted protocol wont happen in this country, unless a manufacturer who makes both panels and detectors does it, Thorn had encrypted RIOs for Galaxy think that the nearest anybody has got to it. 

[MrHappy 1,864]

10 hours ago, Nova-Security said:

 

Only every company I have heard of that was developing a G4 detector that sit on the control panel data BUS was risco, but this was when the Grading first came out. Iam glad they didnt make one would have been a joke.

 

Worked in a few banks where they have PACOM panels, and the detectors are still 1980s C+K dualtecs which must be wired EOL as they wont have any sort of data bus between the two. 

 

Encrypted protocol wont happen in this country, unless a manufacturer who makes both panels and detectors does it, Thorn had encrypted RIOs for Galaxy think that the nearest anybody has got to it. 

There was going to be a "BSIA" open protocol of sensors on a shared data bus or something ?

[Nova-Security 122]

53 minutes ago, MrHappy said:

There was going to be a "BSIA" open protocol of sensors on a shared data bus or something ?

 

They dont seam to have the power anymore to enforcer things, most of the manufactures have have somebody sat on a BS committee and make the regs to suit their panels.

 

If they did manage to do something it would end up like the fire protocols, 3/4 that you can buy of the shelf which are not compatible with each other and the big firms tie it down to their own.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Nova-Security

[james.wilson 783]

there was a protocol it was called open ip. But only manufacturer that supported it and made product was gjd

[MrHappy 1,864]

3 hours ago, james.wilson said:

there was a protocol it was called open ip. But only manufacturer that supported it and made product was gjd

That's the thingy...

[GaryO 0]

Grade 4 is high security, typically used in defence sector. SSG manufacture a Grade 4 compliant panel, but you will need appropriate security clearance to obtain any technical information on this equipment. 

[PeterJames 731]

6 hours ago, GaryO said:

Grade 4 is high security, typically used in defence sector. SSG manufacture a Grade 4 compliant panel, but you will need appropriate security clearance to obtain any technical information on this equipment. 

Really?  what do you base this on

[norman 1,116]

OGary

[al-yeti 596]

8 hours ago, GaryO said:

Grade 4 is high security, typically used in defence sector. SSG manufacture a Grade 4 compliant panel, but you will need appropriate security clearance to obtain any technical information on this equipment. 

I used to get security clearance and all that malarky there is such thing they use all the panels that are available on the market