james.wilson Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Takes or optex active beam. Re supply there is tsi main sponsor online store securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Arfur : Not sure I understand your scheme. As I read it, it is for a single sliding sash window?. If so, I didn't know they existed, ours have upper and lower sliding sashes. [/quote why i said we needed more info you can have sash windows that both sections slide, or have a fixed upper or lower section, but not many later double glazed sash windows will even have the traditional weights, (but i assumed yours is timber and did). It also seems to need a sign asking the burglar to make sure he opens the window to it's full extent?. I'm sure I've missed something. using duel contacts method -: 1st contact, you must secure the window fully closed as 'normal', forcing the window up causes alarm through this contact. 2) fit restrictor bolts so as the window is held to required fixed open position, say 6", you say you never have windows open, but think part set, this is usually done for allowing ventilation during very hot weather (rare i know), few intruders even kids can squeeze through that gap but could of course fish your laptop/ipad bag using a garden broom. If the window will be locked closed then a shock sensor alone will likely be fine, but if not locked the alarm still sets ok. an intruder can slowly lift the window quite naturally not wanting to make any noise, so might avoid causing enough vibration to cause an alarm to activate. Given this type of window tends to vibrate due to thunder or near traffic, it will not be set to it's highest sensitivity. the check chain hep stops that issue, especially if you do forget to close and lock it, but also allows fast exit in case of fire no need finding alan key or fiddling in s smoke filled room. as for not refitting the chain, well if you don't instil some simple discipline in the systems users, little point fitting an alarm in the 1st place tbh, just due to likely false alarms that can cause. Best systems in the world can be defeated simply by lax user operation, and conversely normally born from the systems reliability and subsequent user complacency. 'it sets so must be protecting', a very wrong conclusion, the fact that it sets just shows all the detection at that point in time is 'clear', not at actually physically secured. Physical barrier sounds fairly secure, but I would worry about fire egress.[/quotenow your cooking as that is my POV (whoops! so ti speak Risco WatchOUT looks very interesting, I'll definitely read more about that. Check chain is a smart idea too, but bit of a hassle to have to put a chain on and off so it may get forgotten, plus we would never go out and deliberately leave a window open, ever. bee properly installed and adjusted, they are very good, knowledge as regarding location and installation is not all in its booklet, and be an expensive option to cover a single window. end of the day it depends what you are protecting, and your attitude towards being more worried about personal attack or contents loss, end if the day it will sound a siren, and hopefully scare away an intruder, it will not arrest anyone but may deter on site of the external siren. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJames Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Arf I am sure that if you and I mean you did it there would be know problem, and as Paul has stated Holland park (A prestige job that we installed) has been fine using a similar method as you describe. The reason I think it would end in tears is the combination of DIYer + complicated eol wiring = lots of problems that cant easily be resolved. Beams on the otherhand are nice and easy bee man take a look at http://www.takex.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Arf I am sure that if you and I mean you did it there would be know problem, and as Paul has stated Holland park (A prestige job that we installed) has been fine using a similar method as you describe. The reason I think it would end in tears is the combination of DIYer + complicated eol wiring = lots of problems that cant easily be resolved. Beams on the otherhand are nice and easy bee man take a look at http://www.takex.com/ Arf I am sure that if you and I mean you did it there would be know problem, and as Paul has stated Holland park (A prestige job that we installed) has been fine using a similar method as you describe. The reason I think it would end in tears is the combination of DIYer + complicated eol wiring = lots of problems that cant easily be resolved. Beams on the otherhand are nice and easy bee man take a look at http://www.takex.com/ Agreed Peter, sorry everyone my poor paragraph 'quotes' - but Mrs Mo was demanding i attend the dinner table like NOW! - trust me, not a woman to trifle with i can assure you :. I fear Bee is going overboard but who can say? Holland Park likely to be very high end, not sure these days simply due to labour costs, fitting 2 contacts to each sliding window is still viable, engineer has to know how to get into them and avoid strikes by the weights (which Paul would know), add disturbing paint and so on. The wireless shocks, used as described are quick and easy, as long as the windows do not have to much 'slop'. external detection while i use WatchOut's successfully, have to be thought about and sited carefully, work really well at upper levels but are still subject to false alarms from window cleaners etc. so hard for anyone to advise accurately without further concise info, 'knock out rods' might be his best option lol! dam i'm getting old If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee_man Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Why and what do you think is complicated about EOL wiring?. You end up with two alarm/tamper wires instead of four so I'm all in favour of it, plus the resistors are often on the PCB now and you just choose the jumpers to suit. For the Pyronix 4K7/2K2 scheme I'm looking at, all the devices normally closed switches are wired in series. Put 12K across the Mask if it exists, 6K8 acoss the Fault if it exists, 4K7 across Alarm, Tamper left as is, and 2K2 in series with the lot. Wires go one to the top of the chain and the other to the other end of the 2K2 off the bottom of the chain. Those two wires go into a zone input and it's common on the ZEM module. That will be one screened twisted pair. Another screened twisted pair I'll take +12V and 0V to the device if it needs it. (I happen to have Belden 8723 cable, 49.2 ohms/km ). The screens will be grounded one end. All wire ends will be terminated in ferrules and identified with cable markers. The cable will not be run near mains cable. It will be in trunking most of the way and cleated where it's not. No sharp bends, no routing over sharp edges. Holes through masonary will be sleeved. Where I need to use my own resistors, they will be 1% 0.6Watt metal film and the legs will be sleeved. Maximum expected dissipation at worst case voltage is 15*15/2200 = 0.1Watts so they are well in. You may think of me as a DIY'er, and as far as this alarm in my own home, I am, but I've wired industrial sites all over the world, and also designed and overseen large electronics and internconnection wiring projects involving literally miles of multicore cable. So yes, I'm new to wired alarms, and yes I will make mistakes, but I do know which end of cutters, strippers, multimeter, oscilliscope, etc is which. The help I need here is the specifics which are obvious to old hands, the methods and knowledge you have gained through experience and which I respect. I'm trying to politely ask questions to draw that knowledge out, but it gets a bit disheartning to constantly be told I'm a DIYer and hence don't know what a complicated resistor is or how to wire a mains plug, and that I will fail. If you think I will fail then please tell me why, then I can look hgarder at that area. bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Nothing meant in detriment, but as a consumer doing it yourself you are a DIY'er, your aptitude aside this is why you are refereed to this as opposed to a security professional. Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Why and what do you think is complicated about EOL wiring?. You end up with two alarm/tamper wires instead of four so I'm all in favour of it, plus the resistors are often on the PCB now and you just choose the jumpers to suit. For the Pyronix 4K7/2K2 scheme I'm looking at, all the devices normally closed switches are wired in series. Put 12K across the Mask if it exists, 6K8 acoss the Fault if it exists, 4K7 across Alarm, Tamper left as is, and 2K2 in series with the lot. Wires go one to the top of the chain and the other to the other end of the 2K2 off the bottom of the chain. Those two wires go into a zone input and it's common on the ZEM module. That will be one screened twisted pair. Another screened twisted pair I'll take +12V and 0V to the device if it needs it. (I happen to have Belden 8723 cable, 49.2 ohms/km ). The screens will be grounded one end. All wire ends will be terminated in ferrules and identified with cable markers. The cable will not be run near mains cable. It will be in trunking most of the way and cleated where it's not. No sharp bends, no routing over sharp edges. Holes through masonary will be sleeved. Where I need to use my own resistors, they will be 1% 0.6Watt metal film and the legs will be sleeved. Maximum expected dissipation at worst case voltage is 15*15/2200 = 0.1Watts so they are well in. You may think of me as a DIY'er, and as far as this alarm in my own home, I am, but I've wired industrial sites all over the world, and also designed and overseen large electronics and internconnection wiring projects involving literally miles of multicore cable. So yes, I'm new to wired alarms, and yes I will make mistakes, but I do know which end of cutters, strippers, multimeter, oscilliscope, etc is which. The help I need here is the specifics which are obvious to old hands, the methods and knowledge you have gained through experience and which I respect. I'm trying to politely ask questions to draw that knowledge out, but it gets a bit disheartning to constantly be told I'm a DIYer and hence don't know what a complicated resistor is or how to wire a mains plug, and that I will fail. If you think I will fail then please tell me why, then I can look hgarder at that area. bee no disrespect is aimed at you, tbh you seem to have a fair grip but appearances can be deceptive. Peter is saying and i agreed, we are both very experienced engineers (45 years in my case alone), would you consider yourself on the same level as us in knowing how to fit these contacts without minimal damage and/or faults?an example, in you opening post you mention windows to be left open at night, yet you also state in post 10 you would never leave windows open while away - which happens to include nights. we are attempting to help you, a total stranger to s, not even aware of our credentials, on a building we have no idea of its construction, layout or value held within. all aspects we would cover during a risk assessment on a site visit had you decided to pay for our professional services. instead despite your now obvious high earning power, your effectively cheap skating your own installation on the back of our skill sets and knowledge. you might respect our efforts a little more than plumping your own chest feathers. you may well be a noted expert in your own fields, but you are currently in ours, and its a very big wall for you to 'p' up! If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee_man Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I'm also an experienced engineer, also of 45 years. It's in a different side of electrical and electronics. Of course I havn't got the same level of knowledge of wiring alarms as you, I thought I made that very clear and acknowledged your experience and knowledge in my last post. As for open windows, I repeat we would never, under any circumstances, leave windows open while we are out, The first post you point out is by 'cestor', not me. High earning power? lol. If you'd read my 'Hello' post, I did mention I am disabled and retired. My earning capacity is zero. In that same post, I explained I am getting my son to do the practical side of this under my supervision. No way am I trying to 'plump feathers', you've totally misinterpreted what I said if you read it that way. Please read it again, i was told EOL wiring was complicated, so I was posting my interpretation of it so Peter could see if I had understood it or not and correct it if not. I really really don't want an argument Authur, I thought I had been polite and respectful, and I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way to you. bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubit Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I wouldn't worry. And yes, you did explain previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Arfurs long lost brother!! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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