james.wilson Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Arf I must disagree here also on the issue of TVL, 470 lines used to considered to be fairly Hi Res in budget cameras, but medium res now, current model can sport 600+ TVL, so prices on the lower specification cameras fall (but you still get very good images), if perhaps less range from the older designed LED lighting for instance, there more to it than that, this is not a tutorial. >450 tvl colour IS high res. Try one of your claimed 600+ tvl cameras and check what it actually achieves. Also under PAL which is a 625 line standard, not all the lines re visable. From Memory the max visibale on 625 PAL is 576 lines. So anything above 576 lines is a try waste of money or even a spec fib. TVL is one only part of the spec anyway. Id also advise you check your dvr for what is the max res it can support WITHOUT interlace noise. This is usually 288 vertical pixels so a 600+TVL camera would truly be wasted. A lot of low end machines claim D1 resolution but can only achieve it with interlace noise on motion. The only true way to eradicate this is to use progressive scan cameras. Im not a huge fan of old style PAL/CCIR cctv due to the resolution restriction and much prefer IP or 'High def' cameras. Have you ever compared one of these so called 600tvl cameras against a proper say panasonic camera. There is a huge difference. Im not discounting cheap gear but its unfair and wrong to say its anything other than that. I read your post, and it comes across that all thet matters is TVL. As we all know this is totally wrong and a lower res decent camera) can outperform a so called 'sony' chinese bit of <insert word of choice here> Again it has a place but only after careful consideration and usually the shorter range stuff securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Arf I must disagree here also you could put that in your footer lol! >450 tvl colour IS high res. Try one of your claimed 600+ tvl cameras and check what it actually achieves. Also under PAL which is a 625 line standard, not all the lines re visable. From Memory the max visible on 625 PAL is 576 lines. So anything above 576 lines is a try waste of money or even a spec fib. TVL is one only part of the spec anyway. Id also advise you check your dvr for what is the max res it can support WITHOUT interlace noise. This is usually 288 vertical pixels so a 600+TVL camera would truly be wasted. A lot of low end machines claim D1 resolution but can only achieve it with interlace noise on motion. The only true way to eradicate this is to use progressive scan cameras. Im not a huge fan of old style PAL/CCIR cctv due to the resolution restriction and much prefer IP or 'High def' cameras. Have you ever compared one of these so called 600tvl cameras against a proper say panasonic camera. There is a huge difference. Im not discounting cheap gear but its unfair and wrong to say its anything other than that. I read your post, and it comes across that all thet matters is TVL. As we all know this is totally wrong and a lower res decent camera) can outperform a so called 'sony' chinese bit of <insert word of choice here> Again it has a place but only after careful consideration and usually the shorter range stuff blimey James, this is budget DIY land, not industrial strength IP cameras land , if you check most to the CCTv guys they would not know about the joys of configuring IP setups. my 42" LCD will produce 1080p? so if he shares the camera direct into composit input my Tv it up-scale's to 720i tvl (brilliant for XBoxe Live i did not intend to turn into a full workshop instruction manual for CCTv apprentice's, common mistake in here is to assume if i don't mention it then i don't know it, have not read it or ignore it, yet everyone conversely craves shorter posts from me, apparently - so can i win? what, 10 years ago 420 TVL was very expensive and referred to as 'Hi-Res' you will even see 360 tvl today claimed as 'Hi Res'. as camera TVL increases the DVR makers will adapt to these improvements or risk dying, so i see no problem using higher res cameras than currently supported, if you think future proofing for newer displays and DVRs improvements is worth doing. so yes i do fit 600tvl units, but tbh mainly for their lower picture noise tendencies and lower usable light levels of current new era models incase then scene lighting fails. i've been moving away from in-build LEDS in favour of white light floods in most cases, due to the spider web problems caused by more powerful LEDS used, and if the leds go a completely a camera change is needed, white light prevents this need. some of what i was hoping to point out in a more simple and understandable lay mans terms way, there is no need to use them. obviously i failed miserably - so do you at least agree with that last statement?. Arfur If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 had a call from a friend today, bought an 'in the box' cctv kit from Makro @ circa £600.00 and the dvr is playing up, called in from my way home from work and advised to pack it up and send it back. what a complete pile. Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider1uk Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 Again, thanks for the replys. Oxford, never been into fishing. Arfur mo and james thanks a lot. I really cannot afford hi res professional cameras though. I do have street lights on the road so after looking at all the advice on here, was thinking of maybe using different cameras prehaps - Night Angel - Ultra Sharp Low Lux Compact Vandal Dome Camera - 4-9mm Lens @ £109 or Killer Night Hawk - Ultra Low Light High Res 3-11mm Varifocal DC auto iris lens @ £119. neither of these have IR's so will add small lights to increase if required. Not from the company mentioned in my first post. Undecided about DVR yet as I might have to add more cameras later when budget allows to get full coverage. Might go with 3 cameras and a better DVD supporting up to 8 cameras eventually but probaably only need 5-6. looking to the same supplier for the DVD as the cameras Jupiter V3 4ch H264 High Resolution DVR which is an AVtech AVC793D £248 with 1Tb Hdd. or Killer XDH8 - Realtime DVR + Mobile viewing £514 with 1Tb If anybody can recommend a dvr at about £500 ish and decent cameras at about £120 ish (all +vat) pleaae let me know and i will look at them. Reason I am looking to install this is because. a) we have had vandilsm in the past B) we are going to take a builder to court for poor workmanship and breach of contract soon so want to be prepared for any possible comeback. What area do you cover Arfur? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubit Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Again, thanks for the replys. Oxford, never been into fishing. Arfur mo and james thanks a lot. I really cannot afford hi res professional cameras though. I do have street lights on the road so after looking at all the advice on here, was thinking of maybe using different cameras prehaps - Night Angel - Ultra Sharp Low Lux Compact Vandal Dome Camera - 4-9mm Lens @ £109 or Killer Night Hawk - Ultra Low Light High Res 3-11mm Varifocal DC auto iris lens @ £119. neither of these have IR's so will add small lights to increase if required. Not from the company mentioned in my first post. Undecided about DVR yet as I might have to add more cameras later when budget allows to get full coverage. Might go with 3 cameras and a better DVD supporting up to 8 cameras eventually but probaably only need 5-6. looking to the same supplier for the DVD as the cameras Jupiter V3 4ch H264 High Resolution DVR which is an AVtech AVC793D £248 with 1Tb Hdd. or Killer XDH8 - Realtime DVR + Mobile viewing £514 with 1Tb If anybody can recommend a dvr at about £500 ish and decent cameras at about £120 ish (all +vat) pleaae let me know and i will look at them. Reason I am looking to install this is because. a) we have had vandilsm in the past B) we are going to take a builder to court for poor workmanship and breach of contract soon so want to be prepared for any possible comeback. What area do you cover Arfur? Thanks If i recall correctly, Stuart, their sales guy in the showroom suggested the Jupiter may not be the better option. They push the Killer range far more. Checking the playback on both variants the Killer, certainly to me, seemed to give better results. You do of course get the added bonus of Mobile phone viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netcamsecurity Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Hi Guy just to but in here im near cctv direct used them a couple of times when ive not been able to get to my usual suppliers, ther kit is a bit **** and pricey for what u get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Again, thanks for the replys. Oxford, never been into fishing. Arfur mo and james thanks a lot. I really cannot afford hi res professional cameras though. I do have street lights on the road so after looking at all the advice on here, was thinking of maybe using different cameras prehaps - Night Angel - Ultra Sharp Low Lux Compact Vandal Dome Camera - 4-9mm Lens @ £109 or Killer Night Hawk - Ultra Low Light High Res 3-11mm Varifocal DC auto iris lens @ £119. neither of these have IR's so will add small lights to increase if required. Not from the company mentioned in my first post. Undecided about DVR yet as I might have to add more cameras later when budget allows to get full coverage. Might go with 3 cameras and a better DVD supporting up to 8 cameras eventually but probaably only need 5-6. looking to the same supplier for the DVD as the cameras Jupiter V3 4ch H264 High Resolution DVR which is an AVtech AVC793D £248 with 1Tb Hdd. or Killer XDH8 - Realtime DVR + Mobile viewing £514 with 1Tb If anybody can recommend a dvr at about £500 ish and decent cameras at about £120 ish (all +vat) pleaae let me know and i will look at them. Reason I am looking to install this is because. a) we have had vandilsm in the past B) we are going to take a builder to court for poor workmanship and breach of contract soon so want to be prepared for any possible comeback. What area do you cover Arfur? Thanks we (trade) have many ways to skin a cat, so dealing with vandalsim best away within your budget would depend on your location, layout etc lighting wise, the £10 auto floods are more than adequate usually, nothing stopping you buying better or shed ones, ther is one model with a plug-in 'chime' baby alarm type module, bought from electrical wholesallers for about £60 ish! street price. the chime will work day and night to warm you. with separate lighting you get the advantage of your own comfort at night of being able to see, and won't get the irritating reflected IR energy back into the image as happens with spider webs and cameras having built-in IR suffer, they seem to attract spiders in hordes, just always when you need it most, there's a perfect view of a ruddy great spiders anus instead. the remark was to show with the correct selected budget system equipment, it can be very usable and reliable at a relatively low cost for an acceptable performance. all trades have their 'only expensive' believers, and they do have a valid points if you want broadcast quality, but i'd ask anyone who says you should max out the credit card if they ever shop in £ savers. in the right hands the more expensive kit is the better assured way, but not in the DIY'ers hands, as more likely it will not be set up to best possible effect. knowing what is and what it's not, is all part of what you would pay 'us' for, simple analogy could you tune your car better than say the man agents or dynotune?. you did asked me, while not being 'off-ish!' i am truly flattered, but also very very busy as i also said. so likely no chance before October/November and thats the very earliest. just one reason why i don't personally advertise anywhere, no point me receiving calls for new work if i can't cover the work in a reasonable time, would simply wast everyone's time, and there are othe just as good installers in our ranks, i would advise aginst using a sparks unless they are into this work. being only a one man (as band strikes up), my coverage is not a set area as such, i like to be fair about being able to give reasonable after sales to clients, just in case, so mainly home counties with North London and Greenwich concentrations especially, but say within 40 miles of Wickford. Arfur If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry-f Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Hi there everyone. Came across this thread and a previous one, now closed, so thought I'd pop along and say hello in a "Will the real cctv42 please step forward" moment Nothing to do with the original poster so please don't be too hard on him, there is no conspiracy theory he's come on here for advice plain and simple. When I post on forums I don't hide behind the cloak of anonymity so often used by internet warriors. You'll know who I am. A little about our products, company, advice given and so on to clear up questions raised: Although relatively new as a trading entity (hence the lack of Google profile) we've been working on the project for a couple of years. Came into CCTV as a punter when looking to acquire some for the Porsche business which has been around since the Ark, Goggle "Porsche" and you'll find us !! Did some homework, bought some kit, realised it wasn't really up to the job, found the whole topic very confusing when looking at alternative suppliers and so set up the business. Many of our products are unique to ourselves in terms of electronic components and they have been arrived at after lots of testing on site then liaising with the manufacturer. Every product we offer for sale has been fitted and tested by us, we don't offer any products based on manufacturer's claims or figures. Our Sony electronics packs consist of Sony CCD and Sony DSP (chipset). We aim to give really clear advice and help both over the phone, via email and on our site. You will see there is more information than sales content on the website, that's the main drive behind setting the business up, to help people avoid making the same mistakes we did. One of our biggest selling points is the backup we offer. Our first ever customer was a chap who'd bought a brand name DVR off a well known CCTV supplier but couldn't get the remote access sorted out despite numerous calls to supplier and DVR manufacturer. In the end he returned it (with a little difficulty), and we supplied the kit and set up his remote access without issue. Actually a very easy one as he'd already gone to the trouble of sorting out a Static IP address. I'm not saying our views on CCTV are always going to be right but if you disagree with us then it's probably a case of both solutions working, just different ways to skin the cat. What I would say is because we are offering the technical backup it's in our interest to get things right, because this is a project I'm very passionate about we won't just sweep problems under the carpet. Finally in relation to numbers and specifications. Dealing directly with manufacturer's as we do I see so much incorrect information on websites it's untrue. Sometimes it's the fault of the UK retailer, usually a typo or simply incorrect info from the supplier. Take a camera for instance. Most people judge them on TVL numbers. The problem is that when we were doing our testing we came across CCD / DSP combos that offered great TVL resolution and supposed excellent low light numbers but they failed miserably in the real world when compared to other combinations available, (at more money of course!!). In reality the lens fitted will have more impact on detail capture than number of TV lines and most suppliers only stock a limited number of options with others "available", what ever that means. So we don't baffle our customer with endless, often irrelevant, numbers and specifications. We simply supply a camera that will work well. Hope that all helps and now I've found the forum I'll try and offer advice as and when time allows and I feel we can add value to what has already been said. Keep smiling. Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 When I post on forums I don't hide behind the cloak of anonymity so often used by internet warriors. You'll know who I am. A little about our products, company, advice given and so on to clear up questions raised No offence, read all your post & still have no idea who you are or what your selling...... Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialist Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 No offence, read all your post & still have no idea who you are or what your selling...... The owner of CCTV42 Possibly? certainly sounds like it. Customers Love us, Intruders Hate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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