NitroN Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 There are several reasons for installer lockouts: 1. To stop unauthorised persons from tampering with the installation. How often are the user codes changed, but the installer code remains at default or at an installers standard? "but EVERY one knows homegards numbers" 2. To stop unauthorised installers (and incompetents) from adding detectors to your installation. (This could affect warantees/guarantees/DD6662 compliance) Which I am sure you would want to know about! 3. So that you know if the client wants to use another company... what did your tech do to p*ss them off? 4. etc.... (I could explain the security risks involved in not locking a panel in detail, but this is not the correct forum) If the client has purchased the system - you are obligated to unlock it if they want this. There are several ways to individualise an installations installer code. (PM me if you are an installer and want to know more - I will have to verify this with a forum moderator to ensure that you are in the trade). This way, you can give a specific installations installer code to your opposition, without them finding out the installer code for all your installations, and you do not have to personally change or download this. Quote from a post: "but EVERY one knows homegards numbers" If you do this... no-one will know your numbers...! If you do not lock panels... you may be putting your client at risk... Just a thought.... NitroN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 If you do this... no-one will know your numbers...! ah the holy grail of alarm engineers - impossible and or impracticable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Could they prove that the system was/wasnt reprogrammed before the break in? Eventually (imo) it would be down to your insurers or the manufacturers insurers v their insurers. If your being sued your the inocent party until proven otherwise, onus on them, and no chance if not on contract. Fit panels with a decent log. Dont know how youd get on with trading standards if you charge to unlock a panel. Regardless of contact the original installer is the designer. That can be called into court, but thats by the by. hpotter. You install a system and dont lock your eng code for example, and mr keen but clueless alarm guy adds a new sensor to help the client out and save em a few quid, needs your eng code and doesnt have it so defaults the code. Adds new sensor but in doing so (as he is clueless) disables 3 others. As he is not a professional installer he doesnt test his work nor the rest of the system. 1 week later place is done over and the 2 zones on YOUR sdp dont work. Rather than call you he calls a 3rd party in as he is expecting to sue as YOUR alarm didnt function. In the log is various eng access's and config changes, the 3rd party company finds this and reports. 3 zones incorrectly programmed by engineer, could not work etc, and would note how it should be on sdp. So you have eng access on a contracted system, modified zones, and a break in and no action. And you think you will be innocent until ptoven guilty? Im afraid not hpotter. I know of 2 security companies that have had this occur (both nsi gold and not me lol) and now always lock panels. But another the panel programming is your intellectual property, ie how you as a company config a system is your own property (just like software) this could then be found out by anyone with a terminal if not locked. You own it, its security infomation and needs to be protected IMO James just my 2p..well 15p i reakon securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Regardless of contact the original installer is the designer. That can be called into court, but thats by the by.hpotter. You install a system and dont lock your eng code for example, and mr keen but clueless alarm guy adds a new sensor to help the client out and save em a few quid, needs your eng code and doesnt have it so defaults the code. Adds new sensor but in doing so (as he is clueless) disables 3 others. As he is not a professional installer he doesnt test his work nor the rest of the system. 1 week later place is done over and the 2 zones on YOUR sdp dont work. Rather than call you he calls a 3rd party in as he is expecting to sue as YOUR alarm didnt function. In the log is various eng access's and config changes, the 3rd party company finds this and reports. 3 zones incorrectly programmed by engineer, could not work etc, and would note how it should be on sdp. So you have eng access on a contracted system, modified zones, and a break in and no action. And you think you will be innocent until ptoven guilty? Im afraid not hpotter. I know of 2 security companies that have had this occur (both nsi gold and not me lol) and now always lock panels. But another the panel programming is your intellectual property, ie how you as a company config a system is your own property (just like software) this could then be found out by anyone with a terminal if not locked. You own it, its security infomation and needs to be protected IMO James just my 2p..well 15p i reakon In a veritas panel... There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 not on a veritas as you know jp, just discussing the topic title. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 as with any legal process the rules are documantation, documentation, more documentation - in denial :lol; seriously, if you have a writen spec any additonl items not on it are not authorised - simple as. the fact mysterious extra kit appears means its unauthorised kit - end of. yes your code could be defaulted if not locked - but means exactely the same thing i.e. unauthorised access has been made to the programming shown by the offivial code not working - placing the responsability thereafter on that person who altered it - not you. just the same as if i fit a extra socket - i take respnsiblity in law for the whole of that circuit, if client gets a belt of one i did not fit in law i sould have checked it - end of. so it would be a crazy idea if i were to add-hock waltz into another installers system, whack in 3 detectors fudging a galaxi in the process a panel which i have no experience of, and hapilyassume i can sleep toght because should they get broken into then they would be responsible and not me - are you sure . that just ain't a hapening think folks regs alan regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma01 Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Regardless of contact the original installer is the designer. That can be called into court, but thats by the by.hpotter. You install a system and dont lock your eng code for example, and mr keen but clueless alarm guy adds a new sensor to help the client out and save em a few quid, needs your eng code and doesnt have it so defaults the code. Adds new sensor but in doing so (as he is clueless) disables 3 others. As he is not a professional installer he doesnt test his work nor the rest of the system. 1 week later place is done over and the 2 zones on YOUR sdp dont work. Rather than call you he calls a 3rd party in as he is expecting to sue as YOUR alarm didnt function. In the log is various eng access's and config changes, the 3rd party company finds this and reports. 3 zones incorrectly programmed by engineer, could not work etc, and would note how it should be on sdp. So you have eng access on a contracted system, modified zones, and a break in and no action. And you think you will be innocent until ptoven guilty? Im afraid not hpotter. I know of 2 security companies that have had this occur (both nsi gold and not me lol) and now always lock panels. But another the panel programming is your intellectual property, ie how you as a company config a system is your own property (just like software) this could then be found out by anyone with a terminal if not locked. You own it, its security infomation and needs to be protected IMO James just my 2p..well 15p i reakon i didnt think galaxy panels could be locked can they : redbull "If you carry your childhood with you, you never become old. Why rush to end life when happiness is in the blissfulness of childhood innocence.""We all die, the goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will." 07475071344 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 not on a veritas as you know jp, just discussing the topic title. You might aswell use the Veritas panel if the one you use dosen't show its been defaulted in the log As you say "In the log is various eng access's Inc. Defaulting and config changes, the 3rd party company finds this and reports." and you are now in the clear... There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensplace Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 What happens if the panel is taken also, or it is damaged in the burglary and the logs become unreadable (and any printed logs get taken to) If they cant read a log, how can they prove it was defaulted, or even set (if bells only) It would have to rely on documentation, say a printout or full download copy of the settings the alarm panel was left with when the engineer last left. If the alarm did not activate, then at least you could prove via documentation that it was left with the right settings. If the logical reason the alarm didnt sound is someone changed them, then someone probably changed them and its up to the insurance company to prove who I would have thought? Or do they have some procedure in place for this type of thing? On my galaxy I will be remote monitoring the activity so I can see when its set ect, but I still need to check on what it logs, not convinced it logs all I need yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 if ther panels gone so has a lot of evidence, there are ways for the adept and alert engineer, but this is in the public area so not discussing them. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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