Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 as with any legal process the rules are documantation, documentation, more documentation - in denial :lol;seriously, if you have a writen spec any additonl items not on it are not authorised - simple as. the fact mysterious extra kit appears means its unauthorised kit - end of. hardly ........ yes your code could be defaulted if not locked - but means exactely the same thing i.e. unauthorised access has been made to the programming shown by the offivial code not working - placing the responsability thereafter on that person who altered it - not you. again hardly........ just the same as if i fit a extra socket - i take respnsiblity in law for the whole of that circuit, if client gets a belt of one i did not fit in law i sould have checked it - end of. so it would be a crazy idea if i were to add-hock waltz into another installers system, whack in 3 detectors fudging a galaxi in the process a panel which i have no experience of, and hapilyassume i can sleep toght because should they get broken into then they would be responsible and not me - are you sure . no you can`t ........... that just ain't a hapening think folks regs alan regs alan the problem with your "defence" is it relies on the accused party providing all the evidence to make the claim against them ........... bit of a fundemental flaw "sure your honour, we never fitted anything else to that system other than whats on the back of that fag packet I left originally" "can you prove that mr mo?" "well of course I can prove a negative - I`m the great Arfur mo .......... to paraphrase John Lewis I`ve never knowingly understood a point" edit - same applies to your point Jp .............. prove it wasnt you that defaulted it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Regardless of contact the original installer is the designer. That can be called into court, but thats by the by.hpotter. You install a system and dont lock your eng code for example, and mr keen but clueless alarm guy adds a new sensor to help the client out and save em a few quid, needs your eng code and doesnt have it so defaults the code. Adds new sensor but in doing so (as he is clueless) disables 3 others. As he is not a professional installer he doesnt test his work nor the rest of the system. 1 week later place is done over and the 2 zones on YOUR sdp dont work. Rather than call you he calls a 3rd party in as he is expecting to sue as YOUR alarm didnt function. In the log is various eng access's and config changes, the 3rd party company finds this and reports. 3 zones incorrectly programmed by engineer, could not work etc, and would note how it should be on sdp. So you have eng access on a contracted system, modified zones, and a break in and no action. And you think you will be innocent until ptoven guilty? Im afraid not hpotter. I know of 2 security companies that have had this occur (both nsi gold and not me lol) and now always lock panels. But another the panel programming is your intellectual property, ie how you as a company config a system is your own property (just like software) this could then be found out by anyone with a terminal if not locked. You own it, its security infomation and needs to be protected IMO James just my 2p..well 15p i reakon If you're being sued then the prosecution has to give you all the info they have. That includes the log. Log shows default, also shows if your eng code been used & when (now that could be sticky if you not been careful!) either way it proves interference, so locking the panel wont make a difference. Re intellectual property: A novelist using Word, owns the novel, not the programme. In purchasing Word they got use of the programme only. I think we are confusing ourselves with the idea that we are programming the panel. We are mearly manipulating the programme, selecting which functions we wish to use on certain occasions. We are of course making the function decisions following discussion with the customer in the first instance at the RA stage and then ongoing through RM's etc. They sign for the system as working to spec, aswell as for alterations to eqpt or "programming". Should the customer wish to change Servicing Co or the way the system is set up that is up to them, but in doing so absolve the 1st installer of any responsibilty, the log records this - if they havnt signed for it, and is why you can default panel & codes, but you cant wipe log. If the panel got knicked ken, I would expect the bell to ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Log shows default, also shows if your eng code been used & when (now that could be sticky if you not been careful!) either way it proves interference, so locking the panel wont make a difference. not on any panel I`ve ever used - it just says "engineer code " or similar not the actual code used and thats the whole point - you cannot say which engineer altered the system unless you have locked the panel in which case it has to have been one of yours unless your homeguard - PMSL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 True, I'll rephrase it... The log will show when an eng code has been changed and if it hasnt, then any prog changes done will be by someone with the knowledge your code! Admitted, by locking the panel, only someone with the eng code can change things. But in an unlocked (sensible) panel, any changes will be recorded and only someone with the eng code can change things without it being clear someone without the original eng code has changed things. I think that reads right. LOL. (well it will in a bit, lads be back 4 wages then pub!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 the problem with your "defence" is it relies on the accused party providing all the evidence to make the claim against them ........... bit of a fundemental flaw "sure your honour, we never fitted anything else to that system other than whats on the back of that fag packet I left originally" "can you prove that mr mo?" "well of course I can prove a negative - I`m the great Arfur mo .......... to paraphrase John Lewis I`ve never knowingly understood a point" edit - same applies to your point Jp .............. prove it wasnt you that defaulted it? Gus, while trying to avoid a battle here (for a change) exsplain why you don't agree. back when panels had only keys as a senior engineer i often had to prove the system operated as designed after claims it had not. all this without the logs and other modern 'tricks' available today. the best we had was if a 999 was fitted, then a record of the 999 call if made from the Tx which is kept as with now BT. Police, Insurrers and alarm companies could ask for this as proof of activation. if i went to one of your systems, or you to mine we don't know each others codes. yes we could default the panels but that would then remove the engineers code (i also password the remote access UDL). so i don't see how you could reinsert mine to a panel - or why you would tbh, as the job is now 'yours'. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 Gus, while trying to avoid a battle here (for a change) exsplain why you don't agree.back when panels had only keys as a senior engineer i often had to prove the system operated as designed after claims it had not. all this without the logs and other modern 'tricks' available today. er exactly........... the best we had was if a 999 was fitted, then a record of the 999 call if made from the Tx which is kept as with now BT. Police, Insurrers and alarm companies could ask for this as proof of activation. and thats why logs were invented.........no? if i went to one of your systems, or you to mine we don't know each others codes. yes we could default the panels but that would then remove the engineers code (i also password the remote access UDL). so i don't see how you could reinsert mine to a panel - or why you would tbh, as the job is now 'yours'. thats the whole point it doesnt matter who`s code is in there, you need to prove you didnt alter that which is changed where as I know someone cannot alter one of mine because its locked in there. regs alan check back to my last question to the guy from Rotherham, if its followed the usual pattern his "poor old granny" now has a veritas panel running on defaults (which I guarentee has left her exposed) exactly because he cannot change anything,because its running defaults, I could easily show that the defaults are a sign of tampering by reference to the hand over docs. your veritas would have been defaulted then reproggramed with no sign of tampering and YOU cant prove overwise - viz "so Mr Mo you claim you never used the curent engineer code in this panel of 4444?" "thats right your honour" "well theres no proof otherwise ................. guards take him away" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 True, I'll rephrase it...The log will show when an eng code has been changed and if it hasnt, then any prog changes done will be by someone with the knowledge your code! Admitted, by locking the panel, only someone with the eng code can change things. But in an unlocked (sensible) panel, any changes will be recorded and only someone with the eng code can change things without it being clear someone without the original eng code has changed things. I think that reads right. LOL. (well it will in a bit, lads be back 4 wages then pub!) post that again in 10 years time (when EN panels are old hat) and it will still not make a difference for the same reason I gave arfur - prove you did, prove you didnt (you cant either way), the whole point of locking panels it to fubar them if someone tries ......... not to stop them trying. the engineer reset on tamper (which is also a homeguard trap for the unwary) is there to show it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.paul Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 post that again in 10 years time (when EN panels are old hat) and it will still not make a difference for the same reason I gave arfur - prove you did, prove you didnt (you cant either way), the whole point of locking panels it to fubar them if someone tries ......... not to stop them trying.the engineer reset on tamper (which is also a homeguard trap for the unwary) is there to show it But if you get a smart ass who can "unlock" your panel then you are back to same place as someone defaulting the panel are you not There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 But if you get a smart ass who can "unlock" your panel then you are back to same place as someone defaulting the panel are you not yep, though I prefer the old style way of just guessing it .......................... were really on about protecting from Joe P rather than another NSI firm, at least I`ll be able to say "I took every reasonable step to prevent " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 post that again in 10 years time (when EN panels are old hat) and it will still not make a difference for the same reason I gave arfur - prove you did, prove you didnt (you cant either way), the whole point of locking panels it to fubar them if someone tries ......... not to stop them trying.the engineer reset on tamper (which is also a homeguard trap for the unwary) is there to show it Hmm. Well it may sound like a contradiction, but we prog panels for eng reset on many tampers, but we dont lock eng codes. (tbo certain conditions on scanny cant be changed anyway they're always eng reset). Quite apart from we're relying on log to cover our backsides, we want to know when someones interfering with "our" system, it's a pita for anyone to add or move eg PIR cos they've then got to find a manual, default etc let alone carpet / door fitters etc who are clued up on resets. I accept that locking your panel proves only you can play with the prog. Unless of course someone else has the code, which with 10,000 differs might take awile but a determined halfwit could suss out, then I can see a problem proving that you didnt mess with it. Unless the log notes invalid code entrys. All that aside Gus, I really cant see (on domestics/small-med commercial is our main) we'll ever be prosecuted and could of prevented it by locking our panels. I think we both take "all reasonalbe steps", just in different ways. (think I'll just check our insurance policy - again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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