Guest anguscanplay Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hmm. Well it may sound like a contradiction, but we prog panels for eng reset on many tampers, but we dont lock eng codes. doesnt help you at all does it any muppet with a manual can get in there ............ might as well give your future earnings away i`m wondering if theres a legal aspect to someone trying to reproggrame my panel - copyright and all that? don`t know just had the thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 doesnt help you at all does it any muppet with a manual can get in there ............ might as well give your future earnings awayi`m wondering if theres a legal aspect to someone trying to reproggrame my panel - copyright and all that? don`t know just had the thought. Nah, future earnings based on providing good service at a reasonable price. We loose a few like when someone moves and new owners dont believe in alarms, or got a brother etc, but we wouldnt get the work anyway. Besides their cockups are sweet - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 hpotter. So all the software i write using visual studio and selecting options belong to ms? or me? The way you program a panel is probably unique to you and me, and i belive it is our property but i digress. Does you panel log an eng code change?, does the little ones? or does it just log eng access? Fact is IF someone else messes with it and it dont work but the prosecuting blame the original design then im afraid that whatever you feel you should be responsible or not responsible for is irrelevant cos there has been president set (3.5 yrs out of contract and was it self a site aquired when another company was purchased) the firm was held to be liable, due to short comings in the original system design. Or do we all think insurance companies wont pursue the morons who dont put enough detection now they are all loosing money? But again i digress lol colin, no you cant lock a gal but assuming you havnt left it wide open you need to wipe the lot to remove the code (mostly). Its something im seriously looking at but loath to change from a panel i have had great support from since changing too. But i do feel this will become a bigger issue in time to me than it currently is. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Nah, future earnings based on providing good service at a reasonable price. till the next round of adt job losses then you`ve got another idiot undercutting you - you think last years chatty conversation during the service visit is going to count for anything then? at least you`ll get a "small admin fee for unlocking............." yes, you the customer can change providor BUT it`s going to cost you just the same as your mobile phone, BB or car insurance does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 hpotter.So all the software i write using visual studio and selecting options belong to ms? or me? The way you program a panel is probably unique to you and me, and i belive it is our property but i digress. Does you panel log an eng code change?, does the little ones? or does it just log eng access? Fact is IF someone else messes with it and it dont work but the prosecuting blame the original design then im afraid that whatever you feel you should be responsible or not responsible for is irrelevant cos there has been president set (3.5 yrs out of contract and was it self a site aquired when another company was purchased) the firm was held to be liable, due to short comings in the original system design. Or do we all think insurance companies wont pursue the morons who dont put enough detection now they are all loosing money? Regardless of what programme you use the output is yours, the programme is most certainly not. The way you and I programme a panel is surely unique to the site, and therefore the property of the site. Even the cheapo panels we use (9651) will log eng code change, or any other user code change/delete. Panel even counts itself as a user so its own actions are logged. Not sure I can comment Re legal precendent has been set, without all the info (not daft am I).......... (am I ?) If the insurers are given the opportunity to comment at the time of system design and they choose not to, then they have to accept at least part responsibilty if system doesnt meet their high expectations when it fails. (problem comes when customers change insurers, but then do any of these guys do RA's themselves anymore?) till the next round of adt job losses then you`ve got another idiot undercutting you - you think last years chatty conversation during the service visit is going to count for anything then? No not last years chat. But year after year chat, hows your mum/aunt/son/grandson chat. Hows dad doing, was round the warehouse last week, he's struggling a bit, yes I did offer to spread his RM fee over 12mths to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroN Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I am a bit confused about the extended debate, while this is critical; it is surely not an insurmountable problem... As the initial installer, if you cannot prove that you have handed over the panel's configuration to another party; you may very well be held liable for the panels possible future non-performance. I can see no reason, why any installer would not lock out their panels... It does not mean that they won't unlock them if the client wants to move, it just means that they are protecting their reputation and reducing any possibility of a liability claim. If you are not doing this, I suggest you discuss it with a solicitor. Have a unique installer code per installation and lock the panel against hardware defaulting. Ensure that your techs do not know how the unique installer code algorithm works. (Just supply them with the installer code for each installation) (PM me if you want to know some ways to encrypt your installer code to a specific site) If you need to give access to opposition to unlock a specific panel, they will not know a generic installer code. (If you have to give a specific panels unlock code out, ensure that you do this in writing, with a disclaimer (absolving you of ANY responsibility for the panels configuration) - preferably by e-mail, with a distribution and read receipt, or else by registered mail, never verbally!) Even better make the client sign a form, or send you an e-mail, absolving you of any problems with the installations performance, before giving out the installer code. Ensure that you explain the possible consequences to them, about their possible liabilities, and their responsiblity to ensure that required standards are adhered to by the new company. This should not be done in a threatening manner, but in a manner to ensure that they are informed about all the possible consequences of their decision. This may sound like it's a bit overboard, but it sure beats being sued! Talk to a solicitor when designing your letter to clients wanting to change, to limit possible future litigations. If your unique installer code is not based on an algorithm and is just chosen at random. Ensure that you make regular backups of the database that these are recorded on, otherwise you WILL regret this in the future! Is best practice always necessary, no, maybe not... it may not be relevant for years... it just helps when the brown stuff hits the fan... and prevents your reputation from smelling like s... um... brown stuff. The better you are, the higher your reputation, the more you need to do this! Regards NitroN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroN Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 ah the holy grail of alarm engineers - impossible and or impracticable Oh Doubting Thomas, oops I mean Angus, How can you be so sure that this is impossible and or impracticable, if you haven't asked how it can be done? It is done. Often. They once also said that human flight was impossible... Until aeroplanes were invented.... Regards NitroN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 check back to my last question to the guy from Rotherham, if its followed the usual pattern his "poor old granny" now has a veritas panel running on defaults (which I guarentee has left her exposed) exactly because he cannot change anything,because its running defaults, I could easily show that the defaults are a sign of tampering by reference to the hand over docs. your veritas would have been defaulted then reproggramed with no sign of tampering and YOU cant prove overwise - viz "so Mr Mo you claim you never used the curent engineer code in this panel of 4444?" "thats right your honour" "well theres no proof otherwise ................. guards take him away" but the way i - would they ever get me to the cells? Gus while i'm no lawyer by any means, burden of proof is with the prosecution. so they would have to prove i do or have used (or left in place) the default code even on an occasional basis. its not for me to i prove i never have. my standard practice (which is very rigid) means i can prove on countless instals over many years, i have none that have any default code (either master or eng codes) set, so unless 'others' have tampered or attempted to with them. i've learnt a long time back working for ohers to make sure any protective devices/actions you have securly in place, as you never ever know when you may need them against a fraudster. i totally agree that veritas panel running on a default set up is not likely to oiffer the best protection available, or what the original programming was designed to do imo its a big favourite panel of the sparky trade, and i know of many sparks fitted systems which simply uses the default programming, and none of the 'fancier' settings, just posible this is the same scenario even if fitted by diy. regs alan i`m wondering if theres a legal aspect to someone trying to reproggrame my panel - copyright and all that? don`t know just had the thought. intersting thought Gus, as all we can do is change settings within pre-allowed perameters, we don't actually 'write' anything just design a system with in them. as i understand it, to claim 'copryright' is very simular to patenting some design or other, you would need to prove ownership of the original composition/design, otherwise you could claim to be the 1st to set Zone 'n; as off in Part Set 1. then we would need millions of zone numbers to prevent such a conflict with your 'copyright' regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 I must say I'm not entirely sure that I understand all of these arguments thoroughly but it strikes me that locking an engineer code in order to prevent another engineer from re-programming and therefore leaving you open to a law suit could be counter productive. If your panel is locked how can you defend yourself against a claim, the reaility is your competitor probably just replaced the PCB which is exactly what I would do if I took a system over which was locked. The reality is you will never stop the possibility of one of your systems being compromised by another engineer, all you can do is make it difficult, and the more difficult you have made it the more likely it is that your pleas of "not me your honour" will fall on deaf ears in the unlikely event that it does happen. The reality is most companies who lock their panels do so to protect maintenance revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpotter Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 The reality is most companies who lock their panels do so to protect maintenance revenue. Absolutely spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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