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Hi,

I know this is maybe just too obvious for old security wolfs but to taste the real meaning of a commissioning engineer, can you describe your day as a commissioning engineer? What exactly have you done, the tasks and how you explain the time you spend, please? Today or yesterday, or maybe you have more 'tasty' examples from the past? Please go deep in details or technical as you wish.

As not professional, I would like to see the colour palette and to feet the taste of it. 

Thank you very much in advance. 

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1 hour ago, Cieska said:

Hi,

I know this is maybe just too obvious for old security wolfs but to taste the real meaning of a commissioning engineer, can you describe your day as a commissioning engineer? What exactly have you done, the tasks and how you explain the time you spend, please? Today or yesterday, or maybe you have more 'tasty' examples from the past? Please go deep in details or technical as you wish.

As not professional, I would like to see the colour palette and to feet the taste of it. 

Thank you very much in advance. 

Commissioning?

 

Like second fix?

 

Lash panel to wall

Keypad

Bellbox

Detectors 

Programming 

Testing

All via lazy laptop where possible

 

Demo for customer , and go get some grub if they didn't give you any .....

Edited by al-yeti
Needed to make lash spelt right as android changed it to last
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Commissioning is programming, testing, meter readings, paperwork, and handing over, but for smaller companies it sometimes means 2nd fix as well.

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On 19/07/2020 at 11:29, PeterJames said:

Commissioning is programming, testing, meter readings, paperwork, and handing over, but for smaller companies it sometimes means 2nd fix as well.

Thanks, Peter. This is exactly what I'm looking for, but also I'm in need of more details. Sure most of the things seems just obviuos from high overvew. I understand programing. But for example how is testing done, is there any seaquance sheets that I can find that I could folow?  This probably somehow relates to system certification? Also, meter readings probably relates to testing too? So if any one could describe tasks and maybe in details sequeance of the things on that day. That would make me think more.

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Hi Cieska 

For starters are we talking intruder, or fire, or CCTV, or Access, or gate automation? Each have there own set checks, tests, and meter readings. 

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Intruder would be program, walk test, and check that items are installed to the specification and properly. If monitored, set up monitoring and test with ARC. Meter readings would be each circuit resistance, quiescent current consumption, battery current, current consumption in alarm, and calculate that the battery is an adequate size. Do the same with any PSU's.  Check the bell voltage and that the holdoff is working (for longer than 10 seconds, in case the engineer has left the engineers link on the bell) charging current to the bell. If there is signalling equipment check its earthed, if it is separately housed, check any cabling between the CPU and the STU are mechanically protected, check the current readings as above. All meter readings should be done using a calibrated company multimeter.

Note bell delay time (if applicable)

Note Bell ring time

Note entry time & exit time

Number of Rearms

Linefault monitoring

Set the alarm fully and test entry exit is working as it should, set alarm fully and activate alarm system intruder and confirmed intruder, if there are panic buttons test them by pressing them while in day mode. Check with ARC that they recieved all signals in the order that they should have been sent.

Handover should note any changes to the specification, all paperwork such as user manual certificates, and it should say that the customer has been shown how to use the alarm system and has a master code or fob, and that thy know how to add new users.

I think I have covered everything for intruder.

 

CCTV is a bit different NSI expects us to use a rotakin 

Fire is quite a bit more involved 

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  • 1 month later...

Bit late to contribute but to add to this: I agree with what PeterJames has written. In addition in larger and integrated systems there is an additional step of "setting to work"

 

In high security environments commissioning include empty building full set and each detector is activated. This needs considerable planning and some engineering interventions to avoid multiple activations as the tester moves around the protected areas to activate detection, especially perimeter line detection. It also needs the special simulation detection for equipment like acoustic glass break detection. Often it is necessary to isolate devices on the travel path to allow false activation free movement from the outer edges of each protected area to the centre. Commissioning also includes simulations of mask and fault conditions for each and every detector. In very high security systems I have seen simulations of spoof techniques to confirm the detectors selected function correctly under such an action. Each detector is tested, including any sequential verification arrangements and including parameters and names/locational information.

Setting to work then comes in where each sub system of an integrated solution is interconnected and the cause and effect matrix configured and tested. This is often a full repeat of the commissioning of each sub system but with the cause and effect enabled. The sub systems should be fully tested first and only once they have passed the commissioning phase are they connected to the integration layer (or to each other). This means any problems with the integration are known not to be being inherited from the sub system in question.

Cause and effect is about things like calling cameras to presets and calling cameras to monitors, access control lockdowns etc, measuring response times between the source/cause event and the final effect event.

There's a lot of work to do it right and a lot of pre planning and client sign-off before it commences, often involving burning the candle at both ends

Hope that adds to your understanding 

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On 22/07/2020 at 11:10, PeterJames said:

Intruder would be program, walk test, and check that items are installed to the specification and properly. If monitored, set up monitoring and test with ARC. Meter readings would be each circuit resistance, quiescent current consumption, battery current, current consumption in alarm, and calculate that the battery is an adequate size. Do the same with any PSU's.  Check the bell voltage and that the holdoff is working (for longer than 10 seconds, in case the engineer has left the engineers link on the bell) charging current to the bell. If there is signalling equipment check its earthed, if it is separately housed, check any cabling between the CPU and the STU are mechanically protected, check the current readings as above. All meter readings should be done using a calibrated company multimeter.

Note bell delay time (if applicable)

Note Bell ring time

Note entry time & exit time

Number of Rearms

Linefault monitoring

Set the alarm fully and test entry exit is working as it should, set alarm fully and activate alarm system intruder and confirmed intruder, if there are panic buttons test them by pressing them while in day mode. Check with ARC that they recieved all signals in the order that they should have been sent.

Handover should note any changes to the specification, all paperwork such as user manual certificates, and it should say that the customer has been shown how to use the alarm system and has a master code or fob, and that thy know how to add new users.

I think I have covered everything for intruder.

 

CCTV is a bit different NSI expects us to use a rotakin 

Fire is quite a bit more involved 

bettererer

securitywarehouse https://www.securitywarehouse.co.uk

Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount.

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Peter James and Andyha I would like for sure to buy a pint for you guys. I have to come back later to discus Andyha post, but for now Peter's post for in detail analysis.
I know many of you will say that is too many questions to even bother answer them but they actually really simple for security wolfs like you instead replay with irrelevant posts. I would be happy to go some kind of training delay online but I can not find any, than maybe a business plan for any of you 🙂
Ok great. Can I ask more in detail about:
- 1. Program the box - is it usually any requirements or plans given of how it must be set? Not how it's done but what exactly must be set specifically? Or usually it's just very standard and general settings and then more done by request? Or it must be given in any sort of paper work? And if - yes, how it looks like? Any examples I can see?
- 2. Walk test. Obvious. But all the results must be documented? Or it must just all tested and working? Any form of documents I can find to see?
- 3. Checking if items installed properly it's just visual test, with many items that you are not too lazy to check? Correct? 🙂
- 4. How the monitoring setup works? Signing for service, then according the documentation setting up, and calling to the service provider and what? You say - we want to commission the system? The. They say what? Ok for upcoming two hours we ignore any alarms and just sending report that we have received alarms or what? Would be interesting to hear all the story.
- 5. Meter readings - again, this must be filed in some sort of sheet. Would be interesting to see one. What to search for?
- 6. Calculate battery - for how many hours? This is depends of what? Class of security system or where to see those regulations?
- 7. Bell voltage? To meter the voltage on bell contacts? And what is hold off? Engineers link? Hmm seems that I need to come back for this for more in detail.
- 8. Signaling equipment? It's a thing what signals to ARC via circular/wired network? Correct? And that's what Do you call STU?
- 9. Bell delay time is usually for what reason?
- 10. What is a 'Rearm'?
- 11. Line fault monitoring? How to understand this?

Edited by Cieska
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As you say there are so many questions here to answer in a single forum post.

Some can be answered in a simple form with a sentence or two but they are all things you would learn doing the job as an apprentice or from training over many weeks and months.

 

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57 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

As you say there are so many questions here to answer in a single forum post.

Some can be answered in a simple form with a sentence or two but they are all things you would learn doing the job as an apprentice or from training over many weeks and months.

 

🙂Also, if you would't post your complains here, then this forum would be so cleaner to read and find it useful. But instead answering one from 11 simple questions to leave the post with 10 unasnverded you rather not. :)) and probably you will find time tome to reply to my this comment with not really relevant information to the topic, which again could be just better answer another questions and leave with 9 unanswered questions and you would be done about 18% of the all list. Otherwise my topic that I started is also very pointless, same as other people's replies to it.

I would suggest a new rule for this forum: that replaying to the topic with complaining about topic or other relevant info would be necessary to reply in private to the person you complain. This would make forum less ugly for future generations.

 

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52 minutes ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

Your preaching to people that have been here for a long time and had to moderate all that.

I really don't understand what are you trying to prove with your posts? I don't want to start this silly battle here but I will do for the sake maybe more chaps like you will get this message even my original post and my questions will be forbidden.

- I'm not preaching, I'm suggesting new rule for the better world we live in.

- As I said you did reply with your complains to my previous message instead of answering one of the 11 questions to leave 9 unanswered.

- You did your best to make this thread more ugly for everyone to read and spend time reading and not finding it interesting or helpful. In another word, another garbage topic in this forum.

- When you complaining about too many questions is have been asked in one place instead leave it unanswered you showing for others what example to follow to make this forum less pleasant.

- Moderating the forum is mostly deleting messages like yours that are not really related to the topic. So this is nothing about how long you have been in this forum (even if you are a moderator).

- And as I said before, you probably would make more good to me and everyone while posting this in private instead here on this topic.

 

I think it's enough now.

Edited by Cieska
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Cieska are you working in this industry ATM if not are you employed. Are you over 25? Where your are based would you be willing able to move if the right job came up?

 

What would you prefer installation or service ? 

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Lets get things straight I am not complaining or trying to prove anything, you can suggest what you like but there is only so far before moderation becomes censorship.

Be that ugly or not everyone will have a different opinion and it's a forum for discussion.

You'd be surprised how much effort goes into keeping posts on topic and trying to split things where required to keep the conversation cohesive.

Regarding the comment about questions, how does answering 11 not really related questions in one post help any search results.

I am willing to help with yours or any others questions like plently here but you can't train to be an engineer reading a forum, which is pretty much what you are asking.

You should look into Tavcom like we have mentioned in other threads you posted in. Anything specific gets better answers if you split it out into a few posts, it's also easier to find via the forums search function.

 

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1 hour ago, Cieska said:

I really don't understand what are you trying to prove with your posts? I don't want to start this silly battle here but I will do for the sake maybe more chaps like you will get this message even my original post and my questions will be forbidden.

- I'm not preaching, I'm suggesting new rule for the better world we live in.

- As I said you did reply with your complains to my previous message instead of answering one of the 11 questions to leave 9 unanswered.

- You did your best to make this thread more ugly for everyone to read and spend time reading and not finding it interesting or helpful. In another word, another garbage topic in this forum.

- When you complaining about too many questions is have been asked in one place instead leave it unanswered you showing for others what example to follow to make this forum less pleasant.

- Moderating the forum is mostly deleting messages like yours that are not really related to the topic. So this is nothing about how long you have been in this forum (even if you are a moderator).

- And as I said before, you probably would make more good to me and everyone while posting this in private instead here on this topic.

 

I think it's enough now.

As above , go do a course and get some practical experience , you will go in circles otherwise 

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8 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

You should look into Tavcom like we have mentioned in other threads you posted in.

 


You have an upvote for this. Well done thanks, I need to look through it. Seems that I have missed this somehow previously.

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On 18/09/2020 at 10:36, Cieska said:

I know many of you will say that is too many questions to even bother answer them but they actually really simple for security wolfs like you instead replay with irrelevant posts. I would be happy to go some kind of training delay online but I can not find any, than maybe a business plan for any of you 🙂
Ok great. Can I ask more in detail about:

 

Ceiska

I am going to add some answers to your post but I agree with others that there is really too much detail here.

 

Question - what is your motivation for seeking this information. Do you want to get into security, are you just curious or are you an aspiring burglar

Whatever the reason while I can see your are interested you need to get a job in the industry. This is a practical industry: you need to install this stuff for much of this information to mean anything. There are a myriad of options and alternatives and many different ways of achieving the same outcome all of which can be correct in some circumstances and incorrect (or not the best way) in other circumstances

 

You also need to undergo vetting to demonstrate that you are a fit and proper person to know about security systems.

 

I recommend:

 

A) get a copy of the EN50131 suite and BS8243. There are other standards but these will help

Don't ask me for these and perhaps don't ask this forum for them

Also look for guideline document from NSI, BSIA and ABI

B) self fund some proper training: Tavcom do excellent distance training (although I have not evaluated myself)

C) seek employment with an alarm/security company. The majors (ADT, Chubb etc) may have apprentice schemes

 

To your questions:

1)
Yes, you have to program (more configure) the panel. Although "intelligent" these panels don't program themselves. Although some may argue they are more clever than the engineer installing🙂
The configuration will be in accordance with the original design as varied (if necessary) during installation. If no original design then it will be to the installation plan that you would develop hour 1 of day 1 of arriving at site with a box of bits and some tools
2)
Yes, of course the results are documented - otherwise how can you prove you did it?
It's unlikely you will get copies of documents but as they are company specific but an internet search may find something
3) 
This depend who installed the system. If you installed it and are now commissioning it you will know what you did right and wrong. If you deliberately did something wrong then you should not be in this game.
If you are commissioning someone else's work then it is your job, your responsibility, your duty to thoroughly commission which means you diligrntly check everything that needs checking.
4)
You need to be vetted and be trained to discuss signalling. There are different types and the correct commissioning of each is critical. What you have indicated is largely correct however
5)
If you know how a meter works you will understand the type of readings to be taken. Actually you should be able to make up your own record sheet from this. As 2 above it is not likely you will get a copy of someone's meter reading record sheets as they are proprietary to each company
6)
Class and grades are in the standards above. This sets the autonomy of the system under mains fail conditions and with the load calculations (or measurements) and recharge currents will help calculate the battery size
7)
I suggest you find some installation instructions for sounders and panels, read them to see how a sounder is connected to a panel and this will answer these questions

😎
More a communication system. Yes, generally it will connect to an ARC. STU is one device that can be used within the communications system
9)
Bell delay is normally to give the intervention response time to arrive and apprehend/detail before the intruder is warned the system has activated
10)
Part of the communication system to give an indication if the communication path is out of service.

 

To conclude:

 

Obtain the documents above and read them. This will give you more detail from which you could ask more targeted questions: however I would be wary of going into too much more detail than this given the vetting issue.

 

 

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Another pint to you Andyha. And thanks for example to those who was bit crying here that 11 questions is too much to answer, but actually it's done with a line per question and this what I need.

Quote

Question - what is your motivation for seeking this information. Do you want to get into security, are you just curious or are you an aspiring burglar

I need to expand my general knowledge of this before I will be in similar role even if as trainee (and no one need to comment on this).


 

Quote

 

A) get a copy of the EN50131 suite and BS8243. There are other standards but these will help

Don't ask me for these and perhaps don't ask this forum for them

Also look for guideline document from NSI, BSIA and ABI

 

I have looked at this before, but i thought its bit pricey for individual, so I was maybe waiting until I get position in company that has it to read through, but probably I will need to get it in advance. Not quite sure what we are talking about 'guideline document from NSI, BSIA and ABI' ? maybe any one can direct me to it? instead I trying to dig a needle in hay stack.  I'll give a try any way.

 

B) on going.

C) on going.

 

1. I guess I was asking for design examples to see how this looks like that I could make a picture in my head of it. But otherwise I don't need to worry if there is design notes to complete setting it up.

4. OK, i will have this in my mind that something else I need to go through. Does this have exact name as a thing? Signaling... ?

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On 20/09/2020 at 16:24, MrHappy said:

 

well I guess that's me on the naughty step -

 

If you want to be an alarm man get a job with an alarm company.

 

You not going to get any much experience buying tat from ebay, reading books or asking on an alarm themed forum 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, I know hundreds of people who work in this industry, including many many business owners, all of them started by working for someone as a trainee.

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