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Alan_in_Wilts

Conflicting messages re Impaq Plus with Elite 24

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Hi, first post so please be gentle ;)  

 

In process of installing Elite 24 with Telecom DBD-0171 RKP, Telecom AMQD PIRs, Texecom Impaq Plus Door Contact AED-0001, Texecom AGB-0002 Smoke Detector RR/4W, Elmdene, ELM-PA-G3-W Panic Button,  Elmdene 16 Ohm Extension Speaker EXTSP-16T-W and a Telecom CEL-0001 Connect SmartCom with WinTex.

 

The door contact switch is fitted to Zone 1 of the RKP and the Panic Button to Zone 2 of the RKP.  Whilst the house was pre-wired I've discovered that the mean builders only installed a 4 core cable from the door to the RKP location so I had to put both the alarm and reed in series, each bridged with 4k7 resistors, and then as I didn't have any 2k2 resistors to hand I used 4k4 for the EOL and configured the door contact a Type 4k7/4k7 in WinTex.   RKP Zone 1 is mapped to Zone 1 on the Panel and RKP Zone 2 is mapped to Zone 2 on the Panel . (pictures and diagrams attached).

 

I have 1 fault: RKP 1,1 tamper - that's the door switch.

 

In the RKP under Zone Status I get

               Zone 001 N1,R1,1

               Secure 04k710

If I open the door I get

               Active 09k390

If I bang on the door I get

               Active 09k390

If I open the door and bang on the frame I get

               Active 13k920

If I remove the switch cover I get

              Tamper  >65k  (open circuit)

 

This all seems fine to me but if I go to RKP Status I get

             N1,R1   Z1=T   Z2=H

            Tamp=A    Output=*

i.e. Z1 has Tamper Activated.

 

So why do I get a Tamper error if the Zone Status for that device seems OK?

 

PS1 I do have some 2k2 resistors on order and will config as Double Pole/EOL but I don't think it will make any difference.

PS2 not happy with the door switch build. The tamper switch does not have a positive click when being pressed or released.

PS3 my background is 50+ years in IT from programming to programme management. In retirement I'm dabbling with home automation using RasPi, CAD, 3D printing etc. I have an LAN with over 30 devices on it. I'm more a mouse man than a soldering iron man! I'm looking link the Telecom system to my RasPi to switch on cameras when armed and send SMS when an alert.

 

Thanks for reading

Alan

 

Door switch.jpg

Door Sensor Wiring.jpg

Edited by Alan_in_Wilts
typo

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Rule 1 - if you use the wrong value resistors your circuit won't work

  • Upvote 1

Mr:)

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Needs wiring properly with the correct resistors programmed as Double Pole/EOL.It will never work wired like that. New Systems come with a bag of resistors.

Has the keypad zone actually been mapped to a panel zone and programmed correctly?

 

Spring on the lid may need a little tweak but I wouldn't expect a solid click with a spring and tactile button.

 

TAP SMS is pretty dead and unreliable maybe best using your RPi to send an email or the like. Bear in mind comms like this are considered for low risk applications as the link isn't polled.

If using a SmartCom then this supports Push notifications to phones. I wouldn't recommend using an alarm to "switch on" the cameras either it's just asking for a FTO.

Edited by sixwheeledbeast
typos

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Thanks guys for a very fast response.

Quote

Needs wiring properly with the correct resistors programmed as Double Pole/EOL.It will never work wired like that. New Systems come with a bag of resistors.

 

According to the manual (page 60) the Elite's can be configure using other values. Anyway 2k2s should arrive on Tues. There were no resistors with the panel.

 

Page 60 of the manual, option 7:

Quote

7 - 4k7/4k7

Alternative EOL configuration with 4k7 alarm resistor and 4k7 EOL resistor.

 

Quote

Has the keypad zone actually been mapped to a panel zone and programmed correctly?

   
Yes.  As I said in my post "RKP Zone 1 is mapped to Zone 1 on the Panel and RKP Zone 2 is mapped to Zone 2 on the Panel . " Zone 1 was then defined as 4k7/4k7

 

Quote

Spring on the lid may need a little tweak but I wouldn't expect a solid click with a spring and tactile button.

 

Some of my other sensors do give a nice click with the tamper button  :)

 

Quote

TAP SMS is pretty dead and unreliable maybe best using your RPi to send an email or the like.

 

That was my plan. Connect RPi to Panel output connections and then send email to SMS service.  Would be nice if the Elite could be programmed to send MQTT to the RPi via the SmartCom and the LAN rather than build a hardware interface.

 

Quote

If using a SmartCom then this supports Push notifications to phones.

 

That's news to me :)  I thought one needed to buy the GSM board to send SMS direct from the Elite. I need to hunt for more manuals on the Texecom website. I have signed up as an installer.

 

Thanks again.

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Still Rule 1 -


1 Resistor is the tamper value, 1 resistor is the alarm

Having 2 alarm values in the circuit won't work

 

Basic Electronics -  2 x 4k7 resistors will make a near a dam it 2k2 resistor  ;)


Mr:)

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Quote

Basic Electronics -  2 x 4k7 resistors will make a near a dam it 2k2 resistor  ;)

 

They are in series so isn't it 4k7+4k7 = 9k4 which conforms to the Zone 1 Status of 4k710 when the door is closed (EOL resistor only) and 09k390 when the door is open (EOL+Alarm).

 

As I said, it is configured with option 7 on page 60: 4k7 alarm resistor and 4k7 EOL resistor and as per the circuit diagram on page 32 EOL which shows them in series.

 

Anyway, I shall await the delivery of 2k2 resistors and that will eliminate this potential issue!

 

Ref:  Resistors in Series

Quote

As the resistors are connected together in series the same current passes through each resistor in the chain and the total resistance, RT of the circuit must be equal to the sum of all the individual resistors added together. That is

   Rt= R1+R2+R3

 

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23 hours ago, MrHappy said:

image.png.3639f795edd80b59711f3278f79f5126.png

 

Either you're younger than you've told us or you've lied about your life being too short for this type of thing?

  • Like 2

So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands

 

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On 13/09/2019 at 20:35, Alan_in_Wilts said:

They are in series so isn't it 4k7+4k7 = 9k4 which conforms to the Zone 1 Status of 4k710 when the door is closed (EOL resistor only) and 09k390 when the door is open (EOL+Alarm).

Anyway, I shall await the delivery of 2k2 resistors and that will eliminate this potential issue!

Ref:  Resistors in Series

 

I would hope most here don't need a reference to resistors in parallel and series...

Mr. H is giving you a subtle hint that you can make a 2k3 resistor from 2x 4k7 resistors to diagnose the issue.

While there is a possibility 4k7/4k7 mode "could" work short term, if both detectors where active at the same time the 14k1 could be detected as a tamper which would be less than ideal, see below for correct way to solve this.

 

On 13/09/2019 at 19:44, Alan_in_Wilts said:

According to the manual (page 60) the Elite's can be configure using other values. Anyway 2k2s should arrive on Tues. There were no resistors with the panel.

Page 60 of the manual, option 7:

You can program the panel to detect different resistor values but they only support one shunt and one EOL if you use anything other than Texe values.

It needs to be wired like the manual (Section marked as > Zone Connections - EOL - 2 Normally Closed Devices)

TBH I fail to see the point of using a shock with contact on a front door that's part of the entry route.

 

On 13/09/2019 at 19:44, Alan_in_Wilts said:

Yes.  As I said in my post "RKP Zone 1 is mapped to Zone 1 on the Panel and RKP Zone 2 is mapped to Zone 2 on the Panel . " Zone 1 was then defined as 4k7/4k7

If you want to use the panel zones I would suggest you don't map the keypad to them anything wired into them may conflict.

You will need to leave engineers menu to "save" the mapping and zone type changes. I suggest using say zones 23 24

 

On 13/09/2019 at 19:44, Alan_in_Wilts said:

Would be nice if the Elite could be programmed to send MQTT to the RPi via the SmartCom and the LAN rather than build a hardware interface.

I believe there was some python code kicking around on github that works with the ComIP module, I doubt the SmartCom is supported but I haven't tested it.

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Quote

Mr. H is giving you a subtle hint that you can make a 2k3 resistor from 2x 4k7 resistors to diagnose the issue.

 

Penny has dropped. Thank you! 

 

Quote

While there is a possibility 4k7/4k7 mode "could" work short term, if both detectors where active at the same time the 14k1 could be detected as a tamper which would be less than ideal, see below for correct way to solve this.

 

That did cross my mind but then I noticed that on open circuit the RKP Zone Status said >65K so I thought the threshold was >65k. Also crossed my mind that the panel might see shock as door open. I only bought the door with shock sensor as it just a few pounds more than the basic door sensor but that was before I realised the existing cable was just 4 core. I've been tapping away on the plaster board trying to determine if I could route a 2 core cable so the shock can be on a separate zone.

 

Quote

I suggest using say zones 23 24

 

Good idea. Thank you. I've only 1 zone spare at the moment though no plans currently for more detectors but your suggestion would give 3 spare zones.

 

I'll look at github once I've got the alarm system up and running.

 

Thanks again for your helpful suggestions.

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That is just the threshold at which the panel can measure resistances.  The threshold for different zone status depends on which "Zone Wiring" option you select.

4k7/4k7 was added to mimic those control panels like Aritech, so they where not designed to read any random values, only mimic other panels. This means the thresholds are different for each setting the most flexible and reliable setting is the Texecom ones which have been designed to support multiple shunts on one circuit.

 

A more likely solution would be to tape a 6 or 8 core to the existing cable and pull it through having two cables to ones device is a bit unorthodox.

You could just fit the shock plus contact elsewhere and use a normal contact, or not use the shock part at all.

If you have only 1 zone spare on the panel then you are mapping 2 keypad zones to 2 panel zones with wiring, as I said above this will conflict.

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I don't know exactly how the circuitry on the PCB is designed but they aren't like a Galaxy/DSC for example with just a common -ve reference.

Certainly the PE48=> is capable of Double Pole and has it's own 4K7/2k2 resistors built into each circuit on the panel for reference against the circuit. The PE24 has a completely different PCB.

As I say the Texecom will support upto 3 EOL devices on one pair/circuit if you wire and program it correctly.

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10 hours ago, sixwheeledbeast said:

A more likely solution would be to tape a 6 or 8 core to the existing cable and pull it through having two cables to ones device is a bit unorthodox.

You could just fit the shock plus contact elsewhere and use a normal contact, or not use the shock part at all.

 

I thought of that but not possible as I can see that the cable has been fixed with cable clips. Presumably in a new house all the cabling is put in place after the stud work is done but before the plasterboard is fixed. I might buy a cheap endoscope to explore behind the plasterboard, otherwise I will skip the shock.

 

Whilst Texecom make the door switch with shock their WinTex software doesn't seem to have a Type setting for it and the leaflet with the door switch has no wiring or configuration examples. A plain door switch is Type Entry/Exit and a plain shock would I presume be Guard but what is a combined door switch & shock? By putting the shock on a separate circuit (and zone) it can be Type Guard leaving the door switch and tamper as Entry/Exit. Do say if my thinking is screwed!

 

Thanks for your support.

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The two detection methods are designed to have separate circuits (aka zones), as long as the cable length and lid are tampered it doesn't matter how the tamper is detected.

Zone types are whatever you need them to be they are not set by the type of device they're defined by the systems design.

As I said in my post above I don't see the point in bothering with the shock that's on the entry route in most domestic cases.

The device is more designed for confirmed protection in vulnerable areas of a domestic property that may have pets, or to make sure a back door is closed before arming the system; for example.

 

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The 2k2 resistors duly arrived along with an endoscope. I changed the 4k7 to a 2k2 and change the configuration to Double EOL. I also changed the RKP Z1 & Z2 to map to Z23 & Z24 on the panel, freeing up 2 panel zones for future use.

 

I also replaced the 4 core cable to an 8 core and therefore put the shock on a separate zone.  It was a pain threading the cable. I was half expecting vertical stud work but there was none, instead dolups of plaster sticking the plasterboard to the metal lintel. While the domestic authorities were out I drilled 3 x 16mm access holes but failed to complete the job and fill the holes before said authorities returned!!

 

On firing up the system I still had one error: tamper on the RKP. Removing it and pressing the tamper switch cleared the fault so using calipers I measured the distance from the edge of the RKP to the end of the tamper switch and the corresponding distance from the edge of the backplate to *past* the raised protrusion. Both were 41.9mm - i.e. the tamper switch was just missing the protrusion. So I added some packing to the back plate until the fault cleared on reassembly. I've sent photos to TexeCom.

 

Now it all finished bar making good the holes. Next step is to get the Android App working and linking to my Raspberry Pi.

 

Many thanks to all who have helped, especially sixwheeledbeast and MrHappy

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SMK keypad can bend the backplate slightly if the wall is uneven. It's intentional that the tolerance is close the idea is if the keypad is pulled from the wall the metal will bend at the mounting point.

A repair washer on the tamper fixing screw is the best remedy, alternatively give the tamper leaf a tweak but you can do this too far which will bend it back on itself if your not careful.

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The RKP is on a flat plasterboard wall. I considered bending the tamper leaf but considered that too risky given the cost of the RKP. I don't think a washer would fix it, as the problem was not the backplate protrusion being too far back but too high. Photos:

 

892339171_RKPTamperSwitchmeasureor41.9mmlr.thumb.jpg.a37829f1a11c636490678b65fedd1fbf.jpg

 

 

1805865575_RKPBackPlatemeasureor41.9mmlr.thumb.jpg.ceb402a962020cfc5e56ac7ce395a529.jpg

 

I had to add more padding until it was level with the top of the protrusion:

 

1833811756_RKPBackPlatewithpadding-addedmorecardpaddinglaterlr.thumb.jpg.580bbdc1dce19e597b44f8dcabcd2c4c.jpg

Edited by Alan_in_Wilts
resize photos

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7 minutes ago, MrHappy said:

what the dark grey cable ?

Twin and earth grey flex?

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16 minutes ago, al-yeti said:

Twin and earth grey flex?

 

 

right'o...


Mr:)

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I own up!! I ran out of alarm cable and used some Cat cable I had. I don't recommend this as the individual wires are too thin (24ag) to grip in the contacts when there is, say, a resistor wire also in the contacts. Theoretically I should be able to pull through another alarm cable but it's now stuck, so it will have to do. It's only about 3m long.

 

One thing I forgot to mention is I found the +/- contacts on the Panel rather full with all the cables (a downside of wiring each sensor on it's own zone). So I made a bus using a two connector strips fixed to a piece of veroboard which was then hot glued onto a piece of self adhesive conduit channel. Only took a few minutes. I think TexeCom should provide this.

 

1906062127_ControlPanelConnectorslr.thumb.jpg.b5eb45220066c3a05ae5a547253094b5.jpg

 

BTW, what are these contact strips called with the little plate to grip the wires (as opposed to choc-blocks with just a screw to grip the wires)? I had quite a problem finding them on the internet not knowing what they are called. The ones I bought had veroboard pins (which I needed) but I could do with some without pins simply to join cables. The ones with just screws don't work easily with thin wires. Yes, one can snip the pins off but it leaves a sharp residual.

 

 

connectors.thumb.jpg.a48f42bcd9ff49389905ace95c3d6348.jpg

 

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40 minutes ago, Alan_in_Wilts said:

I own up!! I ran out of alarm cable and used some Cat cable I had. I don't recommend this as the individual wires are too thin (24ag) to grip in the contacts when there is, say, a resistor wire also in the contacts. Theoretically I should be able to pull through another alarm cable but it's now stuck, so it will have to do. It's only about 3m long.

 

One thing I forgot to mention is I found the +/- contacts on the Panel rather full with all the cables (a downside of wiring each sensor on it's own zone). So I made a bus using a two connector strips fixed to a piece of veroboard which was then hot glued onto a piece of self adhesive conduit channel. Only took a few minutes. I think TexeCom should provide this.

 

1906062127_ControlPanelConnectorslr.thumb.jpg.b5eb45220066c3a05ae5a547253094b5.jpg

 

BTW, what are these contact strips called with the little plate to grip the wires (as opposed to choc-blocks with just a screw to grip the wires)? I had quite a problem finding them on the internet not knowing what they are called. The ones I bought had veroboard pins (which I needed) but I could do with some without pins simply to join cables. The ones with just screws don't work easily with thin wires. Yes, one can snip the pins off but it leaves a sharp residual.

 

 

connectors.thumb.jpg.a48f42bcd9ff49389905ace95c3d6348.jpg

 

I think everyone does there own thing for cable management some boxes are to small 

 

Even the large galaxy dimension doesn't have everything in the right place 

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