james.wilson Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 You ate. At least one member here likes em. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 20, 2013 Author Share Posted July 20, 2013 Also another question - on the Melcom I have an input for a 'personal attack alarm' - when shorted it instantly turns on the alarm. This was a dedicated zone (Z7) to which I had two NC panic buttons connected - two wires each, no power, and when either was triggered it opened the circuit and set off the alarm. I can see that in the CPX there is the capability to program a zone as a 'Panic' zone - will I also need to connect up the DEOL resistors to the panic buttons? They don't have a tamper switch as such, but I guess that the resistors could protect the wire from being cut - if the wire is cut the panel will know it's a wire cut rather than the alarm triggering. Or does setting the zone to Panic disable the EOL for that zone? Bumping this question - am wiring up the resistors on the detectors at the mo, do I need to do them on the Panic Buttons too or will there be some way to disable EOL for just those zones? (I can't seem to find one by reading the programming instructions but possibly I'm missing something...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozzies Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Eol is normally a global option as its an en50131 grading choice. Dont know the panel tho, so its possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Id agree arf. Id choose an accenta over any medium end risco panel. The big galaxy vs the prosys is no argument. There are other high end panels however. The risco Imo is not one of them. I'm currently playing with a siemans panel. i have evaluated the galaxy, the hkc, the prosys and the siemans panels. Directly. You love risco i know you do but compared to what?You do seem to think ford is awesome code you loved the model t... Ill take that back, cortina. question is it possible your beloved risco is doing a Sinclair? compared o peace of mind cross compatible, good range of wireless options and bulletproof. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 None of the above Imo mate. ok new question tell me in any way with any product where risco lead? securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Bumping this question - am wiring up the resistors on the detectors at the mo, do I need to do them on the Panic Buttons too or will there be some way to disable EOL for just those zones? (I can't seem to find one by reading the programming instructions but possibly I'm missing something...) no option by zone, all zones are used with resistors, detectors might come with link selectable resistors on board. keypad has pab option selected in programming, tbh if you feel you need pab, i really recommend get a registered company (i'm not one) in for Police response needs, or might as well buy a rape alarm otherwise. not withstanding, personally if putting pab upstairs, i always suggest a keypad instead. gives convenient use at bedtime/when off sick, as well as pab feature, thats not so easy to operate by the curious. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 None of the above Imo mate. ok new question tell me in any way with any product where risco lead? LOOKS! but to play your game, when did Ford ever better BMW or Mercedes, but people still buy far more Fords, so your point(less) being made is............ i'm not one to bolluck the site owner - often, but is this side discussion solely aimed at sniping Risco products really needed when trying help a public visitor? i ssk was it me who even suggested Risco? was it me who even suggested the CPX (G600 would be my choice). i said (and nobody else did), due to existing susoect wiring issues, consider a panel with end of line resistors, the choice of which the O/P has made himself - so perhaps Risco is like Ford, fit for the purpose required (it rings a bleeding siren on detection), he has no need of zillions of zones, 5000 keyholders etc etc. as he is not looking after Ford or Fort Nox (afiak), and can potentially instal it himself which with full respects to a knowledgeable and able o/p, he would find much harder with your fanzine choice of panel (and/or the ProSys). shish! horsed for courses come to mind. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Id agree with most of that. Just wouldn't of used ford. But your right it is public securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 i ssk was it me who even suggested Risco? was it me who even suggested the CPX (G600 would be my choice). i said (and nobody else did), due to existing susoect wiring issues, consider a panel with end of line resistors, the choice of which the O/P has made himself - so perhaps Risco is like Ford, fit for the purpose required (it rings a bleeding siren on detection), he has no need of zillions of zones, 5000 keyholders etc etc. as he is not looking after Ford or Fort Nox (afiak), and can potentially instal it himself Actually you did suggest the Risco Gardtec CPX - on page 2 of this topic, it was the only panel you suggested. I looked around for others which were also DEOL but couldn't find any, so bought the one suggested. That said, I'm fine with it - I just need something better than the Melcom which I can install myself. I'm even going to connect up its voice dialler (I have two phone lines at home, I'll leave the SD2 on one and connect this up to the second). So all said -- enough discussion of the panel, unless you guys really want to ) Now an actual DIY installation question. I have ripped out the old alarm and made good as much as I can the existing wiring, which was a horrible mess. There was no consistency on the colours used, so the tamper circuit was blues connected to oranges connected to greens, and the power was a multicoloured bunch. Not fun, and in addition it was an impossible mess, but now tidied up and made consistent. I have the new box on the wall with all wires fed through, and the wiring all connected for the bell-box, RKP, internal sounder and power. I'm now working on connecting up the zones, and installing the detectors one by one. Since EOL wiring is new to me, I put one of the detectors on individually to understand how it works. The detector is an Intellisense DT-725D (I have Five of these dual-tech ones and two simpler unbranded PIRs). I have given power to V+/V-, and I have blue on one Tamper, then a 4k7 connecting to alarm C, a 6k8 bridging alarm C to alarm NC, and green going back from alarm NC. I have my Fluke 87-5 connected to green and blue in the panel measuring resistance. When the tamper is good (cover closed), I see a constant 11k5 Ohms (well 11.493 but within tolerance), irrespective of whether the detector has detected movement or not. The detector is clearly working - the LED lights up when movement is detected - however the reading on the end of the cables doesn't change. I was expecting it to show 4k7 when the zone is secure (since the alarm connection should be closed), and 11k5 when the sensor triggers detection. Is that correct? What have I done wrong? -simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Here is a photo of how it is wired (ignore the white/blue and white/green at the bottom, they're spares and will be tidied up). When tamper is activated I get 0Ohms as expected. I've tested the resistance between the connections and it seems correct. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 whats the resistance of the alarm pair when the led is off? securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Yeah, just got round to looking at that. The Alarm Pair are never actually closed, even when the LED goes off. So the sensor is faulty? Seems very odd to me - it was working previously with the earlier alarm (we were getting false alarms, but the alarm was able to set - if this sensor wasn't working then it wouldn't have set?). Maybe I broke it somehow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rulland Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Yes you will need resistors in every device fitted to a zone. Seen it where door contacts and pir's have failed in the'closed position, customers never walk test, never have it serviced, and would also never have a detection on those zones, but apparently the system is fine because it sets ok!. A little knowledge and no servicing can possibly cause dispute on insurance claims if the alarm failed to perform through faults that should have been dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Looking at the angle of the terminals id suggest you have over tightened and broke them at the pcb securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 James - the terminals were like that both the tamper and the alarm terminals were at a funny angle. I'm only going to finger-tight (I'm not good with mechanics but I ride a motorcycle and am used to being light where I need to if I don't have a small torque wrench). But yeah, I think possibly when the original sparky connected up he over-tightened, then when I loosened and tightened again... Will take it off the wall and look, at worst I guess I'll just buy another. For now am getting on with the others (which do correctly close the NC connection ) -simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Right, all of the DT-725D's have angled connectors like that, and at least one other isn't working correctly (30k ohms show up instead of 11k5, appears to be a bad connection on the tamper connector). I think I'm best off replacing them all. Please can anyone recommend a reasonable but inexpensive replacement? Ideally one that will have the same mounting so I don't have to drill new holes in the wall ;-) , -simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 id stick with the honeywell units quite a good dt and priced ok. We used to use honeywell DT's but now use optex securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjsturner Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 id stick with the honeywell units quite a good dt and priced ok. We used to use honeywell DT's but now use optex Agreed. I have the honeywell dt's in my place, but use optex at work both are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Trouble is it seems you can't buy them any more (. What's the modern day equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Dt7450 securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Actually you did suggest the Risco Gardtec CPX - on page 2 of this topic, it was the only panel you suggested. I looked around for others which were also DEOL but couldn't find any, so bought the one suggested. That said, I'm fine with it - I just need something better than the Melcom which I can install myself. I'm even going to connect up its voice dialler (I have two phone lines at home, I'll leave the SD2 on one and connect this up to the second). So all said -- enough discussion of the panel, unless you guys really want to ) Now an actual DIY installation question. I have ripped out the old alarm and made good as much as I can the existing wiring, which was a horrible mess. There was no consistency on the colours used, so the tamper circuit was blues connected to oranges connected to greens, and the power was a multicoloured bunch. Not fun, and in addition it was an impossible mess, but now tidied up and made consistent. I have the new box on the wall with all wires fed through, and the wiring all connected for the bell-box, RKP, internal sounder and power. I'm now working on connecting up the zones, and installing the detectors one by one. Since EOL wiring is new to me, I put one of the detectors on individually to understand how it works. The detector is an Intellisense DT-725D (I have Five of these dual-tech ones and two simpler unbranded PIRs). I have given power to V+/V-, and I have blue on one Tamper, then a 4k7 connecting to alarm C, a 6k8 bridging alarm C to alarm NC, and green going back from alarm NC. I have my Fluke 87-5 connected to green and blue in the panel measuring resistance. When the tamper is good (cover closed), I see a constant 11k5 Ohms (well 11.493 but within tolerance), irrespective of whether the detector has detected movement or not. The detector is clearly working - the LED lights up when movement is detected - however the reading on the end of the cables doesn't change. I was expecting it to show 4k7 when the zone is secure (since the alarm connection should be closed), and 11k5 when the sensor triggers detection. Is that correct? What have I done wrong? -simon ok, read back i did mention the CPX - this was as an example, i did not actually suggest or recommend you to use it, as i don't know all your requirements (we have a duty of care, even for general advice), mentioning pabs later after you had ordered the CPX for example.11k5 is showing alarm, you have the tamper resistor in series with the contact bypass resistor, if the alarm contact is shorting the bypass resistor, you should only 'see' 4k7. perhaps you have not tested with resistance detector powered up and in ready state? or you have used the wrong side of the relay connection? If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 ok, read back i did mention the CPX - this was as an example, i did not actually suggest or recommend you to use it, as i don't know all your requirements (we have a duty of care, even for general advice), mentioning pabs later after you had ordered the CPX for example. you peddle your Sinclair C5 backwards too ? 11k5 is showing alarm, you have the tamper resistor in series with the contact bypass resistor, if the alarm contact is shorting the bypass resistor, you should only 'see' 4k7. perhaps you have not tested with resistance detector powered up and in ready state? or you have used the wrong side of the relay connection? read the text & looking at the pictures I'd expect the clever money to be termial on the pir pcb are screwed ? Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon K Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Turns out that the terminal was loose after being tiwsted out of shape. Pushing back into alignment causes correct behaviour on the bench, but was concerned that this was fragile so decided to resolder. A bitch to reach since the rear side of the PCB is shielded but repair done and detector works correctly, closing when power on and opening when alarm triggered. I have two left (out of seven total) which don't work. One appears to be a similar issue, but with tamper (doesn't react to tamper micro switch, circuit continually open) - will look and fix tomorrow. The second appears to be an issue with the cat5 - will probably use a spare pair tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 did you not do the insulation and installation tests on the cables as i presscribed? Personally, for what they cost i'd replace the detector, might work a week, month 3 years with a idden fault, due to DOEL robustness - why risk if you have 'fixed it' for an old detector, how many others show this abuse, but are currently working? Its callled 'avoiding avoidable faults' and that often requires a good idea where the recycling bin us . If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Turns out that the terminal was loose after being tiwsted out of shape. Pushing back into alignment causes correct behaviour on the bench, but was concerned that this was fragile so decided to resolder. A bitch to reach since the rear side of the PCB is shielded but repair done and detector works correctly, closing when power on and opening when alarm triggered. I have two left (out of seven total) which don't work. One appears to be a similar issue, but with tamper (doesn't react to tamper micro switch, circuit continually open) - will look and fix tomorrow. The second appears to be an issue with the cat5 - will probably use a spare pair tomorrow. Peddles going backwards on a C5 it will break your leg, roll backwards it will blow up the controller . So wazzzup! You sore you did not consider to mention DOEL, and this one man band 'old fart' beat the yuppy e eveything Gal pack? If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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