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Melcom St6100 - Rewire Or Replace Tomorrow?


Simon K

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think outside of the box young man - well at least outside of your solder joints :).

in short (sorry for the pun) soldering joints don't stop cable damage. some workman bangs a nail through a board and shorts out a cable, so you go to the nearest test point and is all soldered up -

So you go and test from the panel or device end like you would on most jobs, as you know your soldered join is just a complete straight through cable, i dont see your point arf if im honest, if you make a habbit of joins and having to fault find a lot then its great to get to "other" access points in the circuit but imho this should not be necessary.

to be clear i wouldn't solder things like tamper loops in panels ect that you would expect to be able to test from for maintenence ect.

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Well, I've just done some searching and I can't seem to find the CPX installers manual online.  Got a programming one, but no installation manual.  Maybe my google-fu is simply not strong enough.  Here's hoping that securitywarehouse ship one in the box :).  I'm trying to work out what resistors I need to get to put on the detector side...

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Well, I've just done some searching and I can't seem to find the CPX installers manual online.  Got a programming one, but no installation manual.  Maybe my google-fu is simply not strong enough.  Here's hoping that securitywarehouse ship one in the box :).  I'm trying to work out what resistors I need to get to put on the detector side...

 

Never mind, my google-fu improved :-)

 

Looks like I need 6k8 joining the alarm contact and 4k7 bridging to the tamper contact.  Question: the manual talks about EOL wiring, not DEOL, but it clearly shows two resistors (which I assume is to allow for detection of the wire being cut).  Is that correct and I should just not worry about the terminology?

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Well, I've just done some searching and I can't seem to find the CPX installers manual online. Got a programming one, but no installation manual. Maybe my google-fu is simply not strong enough. Here's hoping that securitywarehouse ship one in the box :). I'm trying to work out what resistors I need to get to put on the detector side...

shoukd get a quick start guide in A4,

detectors only need 4 wires,

4k7 is the inline 'tamper' which if shorted or OC - causes a tamper :). and 6k8 is instaled across the contacts as a bypass of alarm device relays.

quck start has drawings come in the box, as do the ressistirss,, not sure if default engineer and user codes are in it (never read it), Pretty obvious your genuine, but we can not offer to send you engineer manuals or defaulting info due ti forum rules, so best email supplier. we can send user manuals in pdf.

when you do get to programming, it is mainly get to the option then YES to accept, or press NO, and alter as needed then press YES

the enter or change option press yes

part set fools many,, you want say zone 4 landing and 5 bedroom 1 off in part set 1, panel default is all zones are on. get to zone atributes Part 1 options and then to press NO - 4 - YES, ditto for Z5 for any other zones you want to turn off in part set 1, same applies fior part set 2.

Part set 3 adds the 'off' zones of Part Set 1 to off zones in Part Set 2, used for guest room or your den when your chatting late etc.

just don't confuse part set with partition ;).

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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when you do get to programming, it is mainly get to the option then YES to accept, or press NO, and alter as needed then press YES

the enter or change option press yes

part set fools many,, you want say zone 4 landing and 5 bedroom 1 off in part set 1, panel default is all zones are on. get to zone atributes Part 1 options and then to press NO - 4 - YES, ditto for Z5 for any other zones you want to turn off in part set 1, same applies fior part set 2.

Part set 3 adds the 'off' zones of Part Set 1 to off zones in Part Set 2, used for guest room or your den when your chatting late etc.

just don't confuse part set with partition ;).

 

Thanks :signthankspin: .  The programming is the one thing I'm confident with, I've always been much better at software and firmware than I have with hardware!

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So you go and test from the panel or device end like you would on most jobs, as you know your soldered join is just a complete straight through cable, i dont see your point arf if im honest, if you make a habbit of joins and having to fault find a lot then its great to get to "other" access points in the circuit but imho this should not be necessary.

to be clear i wouldn't solder things like tamper loops in panels ect that you would expect to be able to test from for maintenence ect.

normally you would run direct to a device, no jointing of any kind needed, these days of remote expanders, less use if multicore cable.

But a cable gets damages, then you would i hope not bury the resulting repair under the floorboards and most would not i'd hope :). that repair may never cause an issue, but it is now a test point for should their be further or missed rodent/carpet fitter damage.

i attend at a later stage, ii might just want to the test the previous engineers conclusions myself (actually being an un-trusting b'strd just bet your butt i would ;) ), and or signs for new damage.

as i said, soldering offers nothing more over properly made terminal block connections, you might well make these fine yourself, but not all do and fewer know how to solder. properly. atl junctions where cable outer is removed, connections should be in a prober tampered jb. ok, over lay a larger heat shrink, granted now physically it is as good as other/new/virgin cable, but you then deny a ready made bonus test point, adding labour to any future diagnostics should they be needed, on that cable area.

i come along, find your joints i'd have ti revert it back to terminal block, because thats how I do it and for the reasons explained.

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Found a nice site with a drawing of EOL vs DEOL which seems to confirm my understanding:

 

http://www.structuredhomewiring.com/TamperProofWiring.aspx

 

So it's just a terminology issue in the engineering manual - pretty sure they mean DEOL when they say EOL :-)

early days battery systems had zone batteries at the 'End of Line', which techinacally was the start, usually lodged in the gents bog - unless the engineer had a sense if humour ;).

some designs do have a single resistor, and others even a diode but most use 2, or in later years even 3 to get mask indication or split another zone from same cable.

just go with doel, don't forget to choose that option in settings

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Thanks :signthankspin: .  The programming is the one thing I'm confident with, I've always been much better at software and firmware than I have with hardware!

from experience, i feel such show if confidence is the forerunner of much head scratching followed by banging and impending doom lol!

still, you have all weekend to get the front door working ;).

get the kit on the work bench, fit resistors and emulate contacts with switches, get familiar, then get it on wall add one zone at a time and test - trust me, or you will risk likely and find i do make good sense.

you do the siren last , thats if you like your neighbours.

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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from experience, i feel such show if confidence is the forerunner of much head scratching followed by banging and impending doom lol!

 

That may well be true :-).  But I've started decommissioning the old box and will get the hardware working first, will program later.  The wires are the harder part for me!  Especially as there is such a mess here.

 

Ok, first question - the bell box.  I've no idea what the bell-box is, but it was connected to the Melcom with five wires.  I'm guessing that they should map to the CPX as follows:

 

STB- = STROBE-

BELL+ = STROBE BELL+

BELL- = BELL -

SAB+ = BELL HOLD

SAB- = SAB TMPR

 

Does that seem correct?

 

-simon

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Also another question - on the Melcom I have an input for a 'personal attack alarm' - when shorted it instantly turns on the alarm.  This was a dedicated zone (Z7) to which I had two NC panic buttons connected - two wires each, no power, and when either was triggered it opened the circuit and set off the alarm.  I can see that in the CPX there is the capability to program a zone as a 'Panic' zone - will I also need to connect up the DEOL resistors to the panic buttons?  They don't have a tamper switch as such, but I guess that the resistors could protect the wire from being cut - if the wire is cut the panel will know it's a wire cut rather than the alarm triggering.  Or does setting the zone to Panic disable the EOL for that zone?

 

Thanks,

 

-simon

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Finally (for tonight - that's three posts of questions for you!) -- here's a thought I have, I'd like your opinion.

 

I have four twisted pairs going to each sensor.  Is there value in using a pair for each connection?  E.g. Green pair would be connected up to NC, then resistors bridging NC to C and C to Tamper, then blue pair going back from Tamper to panel.  The theoretical advantage here is that if one of the wires goes bad for whatever reason, the other is still there keeping the connection.

 

Thoughts?

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Finally (for tonight - that's three posts of questions for you!) -- here's a thought I have, I'd like your opinion.

 

I have four twisted pairs going to each sensor.  Is there value in using a pair for each connection?  E.g. Green pair would be connected up to NC, then resistors bridging NC to C and C to Tamper, then blue pair going back from Tamper to panel.  The theoretical advantage here is that if one of the wires goes bad for whatever reason, the other is still there keeping the connection.

 

Thoughts?

I wouldnt. If you have cores going down wouldnt you want to know. Who knows the reason. If you double up and you dont find out till 2 has gone.... then what?

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I wouldnt. If you have cores going down wouldnt you want to know. Who knows the reason. If you double up and you dont find out till 2 has gone.... then what?

 

So the theory is, if I double up I don't have a problem until the second one has gone ;-)

 

Ok, so we don't like that idea...

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ok, bell wiring correct

as your going ti each detector anyway, best decide on a common colour code

lets say

Orange +

W/Orange -

blue and white/blue are alarm sensor pair, rest are spares.

alarms zones do not use much current, so doubling up cores, unless very long runs is of no real advantage, actually can be worse by causing confusion, while not a good idea i understand your thinking.

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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no need to double up on a system that size period imo. Do it as prescribed, ideally i personally wouldnt of used a risco panel but you are where you are.

 

Yup, seems the doubling idea isn't popular.

 

Someone here recommended the Risco panel dammit!  Out of interest, what would you have recommended (which does DEOL)? :D

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as your going ti each detector anyway, best decide on a common colour code

lets say

Orange +

W/Orange -

blue and white/blue are alarm sensor pair, rest are spares.

 

Colour code good.  I think I'll go for green alarm incoming and blue/white alarm outgoing, if only because that's how it's currently connected up (green pair c/nc, blue pair tamper) so will mean removing less wires :-)

Galaxy probably. Depending on features expected but there is only one or 2 here that would recommend a risco anything. Sorry.

 

Oh well.  I'm sure it'll still be better than the Melcom ;-)

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no need to double up on a system that size period imo. Do it as prescribed, ideally i personally wouldnt of used a risco panel but you are where you are.

snob! ;).

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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nothing wrong with Ricco Gardtec G490, i have loads of them in. not so many bells and whistles as some later panels, but against the Gal come in guys, are you having a laugh?

bullet proof product, whats on the tin is what you get inside it, and it don't need its own engineers forum for gakzine engineers to cry on each others shoulders.

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Id agree arf. Id choose an accenta over any medium end risco panel. The big galaxy vs the prosys is no argument. There are other high end panels however. The risco Imo is not one of them. I'm currently playing with a siemans panel.

i have evaluated the galaxy, the hkc, the prosys and the siemans panels. Directly. You love risco i know you do but compared to what?

You do seem to think ford is awesome code you loved the model t... Ill take that back, cortina.

question is it possible your beloved risco is doing a Sinclair?

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