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Fitting Unswitched Fused Spurs For Alarm Systems


clivesorts

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  • 4 months later...

seems crazy to me but on a recent install i had both a close socket to take a spur from or even closer a consumer unit with a spare way and 6 amp breaker fitted,under the rules of part p i am not allowed to fit to the consumer unit as that is classed as running a new circuit and as such is notifiable,however i am able to connect to the socket which puts my alarm system onto the same circuit as all those lovely inductive loads around the house,it is frustrating as i would have liked to go with a nice clean spare way and i also went to collage for a few years did both a c&g 2360 also 16th edition iee reg as it was when i trained but still now am relegated to fitting spurs how a diyer has to,my qualifications no longer qualify me to connect 3 conductors inside a consumer unit but yet i can do a bodge job and spur from the back of a socket.rant over just think the worlds gone mad.

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seems crazy to me but on a recent install i had both a close socket to take a spur from or even closer a consumer unit with a spare way and 6 amp breaker fitted,under the rules of part p i am not allowed to fit to the consumer unit as that is classed as running a new circuit and as such is notifiable,

if that was true - which it isn`t.

simply take the supply from the existing breaker - no new circuit is created so no partP notification is required. A new circuit is defined by the fitting of the new breaker NOT the location.

source - IET

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agree with what you say but the breaker was spare ie it is fitted to the consumer unit but had no cable connected to it,if i was then the 1st person to connect a cable to it then i would be creating a new circuit,i am aware that you can spur from inside a consumer unit from an existing circuit but cant start a new one,just think its madness that i could have piggy backed into another circuit but am not allowed to use the empty breaker terminals a few inches away.sorry if i wasent clear.

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your not supposed to spur from an mcb but obviously you can from a j box outside a consumer unit - now thats madness.

You cant get better than using a mcb dedicated to that circuit, spurring off an existing circuit and you can become liable for all thats on that circuit, madness yet again

I really can't be ar**** with it anymore.

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agree with what you say but the breaker was spare ie it is fitted to the consumer unit but had no cable connected to it,if i was then the 1st person to connect a cable to it then i would be creating a new circuit,i am aware that you can spur from inside a consumer unit from an existing circuit but cant start a new one,just think its madness that i could have piggy backed into another circuit but am not allowed to use the empty breaker terminals a few inches away.sorry if i wasent clear.

this was argued on the IET forum by a lot more knowledgeable folk that us - using the fitted breaker does not make a new circuit, it`s there and part of the installation prior to your arrival - therefore the need for notification doesn`t apply.

your not supposed to spur from an mcb but obviously you can from a j box outside a consumer unit - now thats madness.

You cant get better than using a mcb dedicated to that circuit, spurring off an existing circuit and you can become liable for all thats on that circuit, madness yet again

who says your not supposed too?

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this was argued on the IET forum by a lot more knowledgeable folk that us - using the fitted breaker does not make a new circuit, it`s there and part of the installation prior to your arrival - therefore the need for notification doesn`t apply.

imho i wouldet feel comfotable with it,there is far more that defines a circuit not just the protective device,the way i see it is if my cable is the only one going into the breaker then its my circuit (my new circuit)regardless of who fitted the breaker or when it as fitted.i wouldent want to argue the finer points in a court.however way i see it is that the breaker is only the circuit protective device and not the circuit,the circuit is the cable and whats on the end of it (fcu socket etc)and if there is no existing cable fitted to that breaker on arrival and you pop your cable in there i would say that you were running a new circuit albeit on a second hand breaker,just my opinion dont mean its the right one.

who says your not supposed too?

this question was asked on my c&g 2360 course back in 1999,dont know why but it was one of those questions that i seem to recall quite well,our instructor (30 years on the tools and well qualified)had no probs with taking a spur from a breaker however the same rules apply in that if its done once you cant do it again (cant spur off a spur etc).

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imho i wouldet feel comfotable with it,there is far more that defines a circuit not just the protective device,the way i see it is if my cable is the only one going into the breaker then its my circuit (my new circuit)regardless of who fitted the breaker or when it as fitted.i wouldent want to the finer points in a court.however way i see it is that the breaker is only the circuit protective device and not the circuit,the circuit is the cable and whats on the end of it (fcu socket etc)and if there is no existing cable fitted to that breaker on arrival and you pop your cable in there i would say that you were running a new circuit albeit on a second hand breaker,just my opinion dont mean its the right one.

Like you say, just opinion.

Can be equally argued that the circuit in the CU was already in place and that you have simply modified it. The cable is only part of the circuit, not the whole.

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Like you say, just opinion.

Can be equally argued that the circuit in the CU was already in place and that you have simply modified it. The cable is only part of the circuit, not the whole.

like I say, cleverer minds than us decided that was the case.

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this was argued on the IET forum by a lot more knowledgeable folk that us - using the fitted breaker does not make a new circuit, it`s there and part of the installation prior to your arrival - therefore the need for notification doesn`t apply.

who says your not supposed too?

sparkies, a few have said it, based on the 17th edition, i'll have a butchers at it later if i get time

I really can't be ar**** with it anymore.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Electrical IEE regs BS7671 are a little confusing sometimes but inshort the person doing the work needs to be suitably qualified and also be deemed a comptent person.Depending on how the spur is installed it could attract a minor works or installation certification.Also the work would probably need RCD protection in some form as req.The work would req testing and the results recorded on the cert.This work would also be notifiable to a regulatindg body NIC EIC or building control.Hope this helps.

the legal requirment for any electrical work is to be competent even periodic inspection and testing. everything above is right apart from it prob wounldnt need to notify LABC

also NICEIC isnt a regulating body nor is elseca/ECA, napit or bsi, as there isnt one (but we should have one)

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your not supposed to spur from an mcb but obviously you can from a j box outside a consumer unit - now thats madness.

You cant get better than using a mcb dedicated to that circuit, spurring off an existing circuit and you can become liable for all thats on that circuit, madness yet again

You can take one spur directly off an mcb at the CU

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7621/lol1ib.jpg

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  • 3 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

NSI released a guidance note a few years ago stating that an alarm engineer who is competant can fit a spur as long as it is not in the kitchen or bathroom. So send your engineers on the one day Tavcom course which will also cover you on any H & S issues.

It's as simple as that, as long as you do not try to be an electrician and do anything more involved.

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  • 5 months later...

ANY alteration to a circuit must be notified under Part P and a certificate issued in a domestic property.

Any business premises that has domestic accomodation using THE SAME mains supply comes under Part P

A short course at college DOES NOT automatically allow you to do this work, it merely says you are competent to do it, But to issue a certificate you need to register with one a many electrical bodies who will ask you to undergo on site testing before you can issue certificates in their name.

Anyon who does any work that is in a bathroom, kitchen or special location has to issue a certificate, even if you are just passing cables through that area.. ( by cable I mean mains not alarm )

When people on here say the part p rules don't apply to commercial premises, it is partly correct, but under the "electricity at work act" all your work must comply with the current electrical regs, if you don't meet that standard, you are liable to prosecution under the "electricity at work act" for which PRISON a FINE or BOTH is a likely outcome...

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ANY alteration to a circuit must be notified under Part P and a certificate issued in a domestic property.

Any business premises that has domestic accomodation using THE SAME mains supply comes under Part P

A short course at college DOES NOT automatically allow you to do this work, it merely says you are competent to do it, But to issue a certificate you need to register with one a many electrical bodies who will ask you to undergo on site testing before you can issue certificates in their name.

Anyon who does any work that is in a bathroom, kitchen or special location has to issue a certificate, even if you are just passing cables through that area.. ( by cable I mean mains not alarm )

When people on here say the part p rules don't apply to commercial premises, it is partly correct, but under the "electricity at work act" all your work must comply with the current electrical regs, if you don't meet that standard, you are liable to prosecution under the "electricity at work act" for which PRISON a FINE or BOTH is a likely outcome...

And welcome to you to!

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A short course at college DOES NOT automatically allow you to do this work, it merely says you are competent to do it, But to issue a certificate you need to register with one a many electrical bodies who will ask you to undergo on site testing before you can issue certificates in their name.

Think about re writing that again!

Customers!

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The New PD6662:2010 standard allows Grade 1 & 2 systems to be fitted with NO fused spur, you can basically plug the panel in, however you do have to provide protection to stop the alarm system being accidently unplugged, and i think the socket must be unswitched, naff in my opinion, but it is in there.

Devices like these are apparently acceptable http://www.alzproduc...plug-cover.html

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The New PD6662:2010 standard allows Grade 1 & 2 systems to be fitted with NO fused spur, you can basically plug the panel in, however you do have to provide protection to stop the alarm system being accidently unplugged, and i think the socket must be unswitched, naff in my opinion, but it is in there.

Devices like these are apparently acceptable http://www.alzproduc...plug-cover.html

The old PD allowed pluged in at G1-2. I never knew or saw anyone doing this but im sure their are many unscrupulous peops about.

I was making refrence to the issue of a certificate. I have been full scope NICEIC for over 30 years and in that time i rarely issued the NICEIC certificate always peffered my own. You can buy certifictes books from any good electrical supplier or print your own. i used the AMTECH cert with my own refrence numbers.

You mereley require proof of competance and issue of a cert to install FCU. Do this and you are unlikely to fall fowl of Elec at work Act.and thus be working well within the law. Always keep in mind those special locations and stay clear of Part P.

Customers!

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  • 3 weeks later...

ANY alteration to a circuit must be notified under Part P and a certificate issued in a domestic property.

Any business premises that has domestic accomodation using THE SAME mains supply comes under Part P

A short course at college DOES NOT automatically allow you to do this work, it merely says you are competent to do it, But to issue a certificate you need to register with one a many electrical bodies who will ask you to undergo on site testing before you can issue certificates in their name.

Anyon who does any work that is in a bathroom, kitchen or special location has to issue a certificate, even if you are just passing cables through that area.. ( by cable I mean mains not alarm )

When people on here say the part p rules don't apply to commercial premises, it is partly correct, but under the "electricity at work act" all your work must comply with the current electrical regs, if you don't meet that standard, you are liable to prosecution under the "electricity at work act" for which PRISON a FINE or BOTH is a likely outcome...

With respect to the commercial side when we say the rules dont apply we mean we dont need to pay a governing body 500 a year to look at one fused spur.If any of the guys on here didnt know the regs i dont think they would be doing it.Its just a pain in the ass because im a qualified spark but work as an engineer and have to pay another spark to install a spur!some of them did 1 week training i did 5 years wheres the sense in that?

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