arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Good point, suppose the person we have been advising, then makes a serious error in the programing. The PA`s dont work, the family is injured.The person then claims advise here caused the problem. Sticky do do or wot. Help, but always disclaim. We dont know what the end user is thinking at the end of the day. hi old hand, the fact that he made the error, would be outside of the scope of advice given by an engineer, we don't recommend making errors so imo no liability - most of us stop before giving specific system programming advice, (well from that i've seen) and advise an engineer is their best course, which is right and proper as we can not see the building concerned. QFA on disclaimers regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian.cant Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 i often see on other's instals a plasic folder attached to the lid stuffed full of spec, log book various engineer notes and pir manuals, those they can't get rammed into the space behind the panel. right where the cable entries are which are also air vents nice tinder box effect Yep not a good idea but it happens, whereas putting paperwork inside the panel is not allowed by the inspectorates (I think it could be against the regs also but im not sure) and frankly is a far greater fire risk! Thinking about accessing systems and making use of the info in the ENGINEERS manual one other point has been missed. It is also possible and much more likely imo that someone up to no good would mess with the settings while the system was unset. Especially if they had the codes. To those who think that JP are entitled to ENGINEER manuals, they may well be but it isnt our problem if they havent got them and it certainly isnt our perogative to decide if they should have them. Its up to you if you decide to issue them to your clients but it should never be up to you to issue them to someone else's client. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alarm Guard Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Its up to you if you decide to issue them to your clients but it should never be up to you to issue them to someone else's client. I think that sentance from Ian is the most sensible posting on these 7 pages. Also consider this when giving advise: Emergency operators (999) are given lots of training about not giving advise. One senario played out during training, to show how badly wrong things can go when giving advise without knowing ALL the circumstances, goes something like: Caller: Should I move this injured man? Operator: No. Do not move him. You may cause injury. (The obvious advise, one would think). Short delay. Caller: Oh dear. A lorry has just run over him. I forgot to mention that he was laying in the middle of the road. Are you sure I shouldn't have moved him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Caller: Should I move this injured man?Operator: No. Do not move him. You may cause injury. (The obvious advise, one would think). Short delay. Caller: Oh dear. A lorry has just run over him. I forgot to mention that he was laying in the middle of the road. Are you sure I shouldn't have moved him? thats got to be a candidate for 'darwinaward.com' surely regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Yep not a good idea but it happens, whereas putting paperwork inside the panel is not allowed by the inspectorates (I think it could be against the regs also but im not sure) and frankly is a far greater fire risk!Thinking about accessing systems and making use of the info in the ENGINEERS manual one other point has been missed. It is also possible and much more likely imo that someone up to no good would mess with the settings while the system was unset. Especially if they had the codes. To those who think that JP are entitled to ENGINEER manuals, they may well be but it isnt our problem if they havent got them and it certainly isnt our perogative to decide if they should have them. Its up to you if you decide to issue them to your clients but it should never be up to you to issue them to someone else's client. hi ian, this happens too - panels placed in wardrobes stuffed full of clothes no air flow and a wonderful source of fuel. with older systems open panel full of fibre dust which flashes very easily, never taken out by engineer on servce calls, perhaps since instal (and all you need is a cheap paint brush and i bit of card to remove it). putting paperwork in panel is an old habit from chubb days, how many other still do this? never had an issue as transformer and reg is at the top of the case so imo avvery low risk of an ignition. FOR ALL TO READ -: you, and others say its not regs and and feel its a hazard, i've never had any issues perhaps because i never used tje cheapy end panels. but i will now stop doing this now. so you see, 'King Arthur' can be told - and learn - and also admit when i think i might be or know i'm wrong - anyone else want to join me in this? - No! - so i'm back on my own again then . imo, still prefer the manual near the panel, for me or my engineers to refere to as panels move on. you can not always remember the exact version which had or had removed a certain feature, so the relevant manual is useful. not keen on putting all the zones down in it, as this could be read by or taken away and used by a criminal. but like i said i often see the plastic A4 sleeve attached to the lid with site record, spec and zone layout for anyone to read. very useful when i've taken over systems. if you give the folder to the client to keep it safe, then invariably they lose it wedge it behind a pipe and it gets painted, dropped and then trown away - can't win. i think you point about other peoples clients is well put, and i agree with the sentiments fully. to counter it (you know me) the end user is the owner of the system (unles rented or leased) so are we to stand in moral judgement? he may have had an issue with the installer or they have gone out of buisness who knows - and of course he may just not have paid the bill - makes it a toughy don't it?. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Alan as usual you make it up as you go, you pick the bits you want to see and ignore the important bits. You choose to be argumentitive even when as you put it "sound argument" is put forward aginst your point, it doesn't matter who tells you, you know better, your not prepared to listen or learn anymore, some would say stuck in the past. I could discuss the points you make, but evidently you have no intention of giving the answers you have been asked about, I can like many others only form my own opinions as to your reason for this. In this post alone you have been if nothing else but consistent in your of base point of view, hopefully your customers are a lot wiser. So the point I am making, your not worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Alan as usual you make it up as you go, you pick the bits you want to see and ignore the important bits. You choose to be argumentitive even when as you put it "sound argument" is put forward aginst your point, it doesn't matter who tells you, you know better, your not prepared to listen or learn anymore, some would say stuck in the past.I could discuss the points you make, but evidently you have no intention of giving the answers you have been asked about, I can like many others only form my own opinions as to your reason for this. In this post alone you have been if nothing else but consistent in your of base point of view, hopefully your customers are a lot wiser. So point I am making, your not worth the effort. i can take critasm, i'm used to and welcome it - but i particularly dislike your bios ivory towered opinions blasted at me based on nothing but a pre-conception. you accused me of 'hijacking' this thread, one i have duefully tried to keep on track as i'm intersted in the views of others, and exsploring the basis of them, and all (but you) can see that for themselves. yet you persist to use this thread for nothing more than mounting a ranting sesion about standards, even though all you have seen of my work is the siren covers - where you surprised i put them up straight and the right way up? i bet your such a wonderfaul engineer most of yours are inside out i'll send you some tips if you like. suggesting as you worked in london and trying to couch it as though you had some knowledge and you have seen my siren covers as though THAT makes you some sort of authotity on me - well news flash sunny jim, there are a lot of engineers in london who have seen my siren covers and also stand back in awe - so you are never to be concidered something special imo beit in this life or (god forbid) the next.. you call me 'totally ignorant', so when the insult is returned in spades you wimper on like some raped schoolgirl, trying to gain the high ground saying 'as someone of my age', hmmm at keast i grew up a bit. when i asked rjbsec 'do you put a contact on the cupboard or loft trap' you fell over yourself to point out you never put your systems in the loft, and basically trunpeting i was a 'cowboy' and had no standards for doing so. what you totally missed due to your lack of intellect or basic reading skills in your headlong impatience to diss me, is that i did not say i put the panels in the loft - i was asking him if he did. but thats just me twisting things to my view again no doubt - go back and read it. you are so you blinded by you infantile and worthless bios in you came in all guns blazing and landed straight into the mier - demonstarting to all your verve for stupidity absolout. did not see you retract that one, oh no not the might alarmgard - as if! more a well respected hero in your own diary - than life. just limped away like a wounded jack-ass instead did we? glossed over it perhaps - more pretended it never happened is nearer the truth there! there!. i suggest take a short walk into your bathroom, and catch up with an old long lost freind - the mirror it will be a revealing experience for you - if it can take the hipocracy! and you take off the rose tinted glasse's. i refer you to #125 especially to the content the bit in blue - note the post time and who i directly addressed with it too - still think i can not be told or iadmit i'm wrong then? regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 ...why do manufacturers simply not send out the panel without the engineering manual included?... guardall doesn't.. but it ain't diy panel at all. Brevity, good word. Write that down Arfur. * types efe.scape.net * Hi,Im a normal member of the Public" ,as a DIYer i like the the fact that i have fitted my own alarm system and know how it works etc.I believe that engineer manuals shouldnt be given out to normal public as this type of information should imo be gathered from the manufacturer not a public forum where intruders could be reading and potentially be gathering the information they need to make their lives easier.... how about DIY thieves then who want's to install his system too?? knock knock - info is still available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 Awright Arfur and Alarmgard..........calm doon min! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mikeyv1 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 (georgahti @July 25 , 01:29 PM) how about DIY thieves then who want's to install his system too?? knock knock - info is still available... Hi, Yes the information is still available but are intruders really going to go to the expense of purchasing all of the alarms they have to defeat.Plus an intruder wouldnt get the manual on this site and so anything that makes it harder for those with bad intentions is surely a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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