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52 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we relax our views on the information we give out on publically purchasable alarm control panels.

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      26
    • Don't care either way.
      12


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Now that a lot of what we once considered TRADE only panels are being sold by the likes of Screwfix and numerous online retailers, should we be re-thinking what information/advice we are willing to discuss in these public forums.?

Should the fact these panels are easilly purchasable by the public, and that most of these panels manuals are readilly available online at quite a few sites mean that any related queries should be up for discussion..?

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Should the fact these panels are easilly purchasable by the public, and that most of these panels manuals are readilly available online at quite a few sites mean that any related queries should be up for discussion..?

how do you know its not somebodies contracted install that being played with?

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how do you know its not somebodies contracted install that being played with?
If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.?

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Hi Dave,

blimey did you know you were in the Jo Public Area with this question? :banned::P

i posted elswhere recently along these lines when discussing kit sold by online outlets, how the dickens would having an engineers manual for any panel allow a felon to overcome it, or be of some advantage to them?

answer's on a post card please but with sound irifutable logic applied (another pig just flew past my window).

the fact is, in truth most panels work the same way, different gravy here and there but they all follow the same 'mantra' of overal design, especially now EOL, iD and laterly radio are more established.

if they can get to the panel before triggering the sytem, then the design of the alarm is very lax indeed, as engineers, we would know the panel and all the wiring should always be within the protected area. even so, having even got that far why would an intruder need, or how would they be able to use the engineers manual - other than for a mind meld perhaps? many engineers can't even read and understand a manual properly, just look at the galaxie forum :rolleyes:

so, lets chuck in default code's while we are at it, again most sensible and reputable companies change these at instal, so no use to the villain here, unless he breaks in and reprograms the panel so it won't get broke into again - as if :rolleyes:

that just leaves the DIY and/or incompetant installer, if they don't change the codes, then suffers an unlucky instance like having an ex alarm installer intruder, who knows the default code of that make of panel and use's it after smashing down a door first - well that installer should have followed common sense and the advice to change the code, which is usually found in most user manuals.

right then, thats my kneck right out there in front as far as my scrotum, and placed conveniently on the chopping block - so let the battle, fun and usual blood letting commence :P

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.?

We have a trade member in cornwell who will install you class one system with ssaib cert??

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how do you know its not somebodies contracted install that being played with?

thats really a moral issue for the 'incomming' company' wether they ask or not.

i always advise they should study any contract, as they may be charged for the remianing period. in truth as you are usually there as a prefered company, on recomendation or because of dissatisfaction in the performance of the current installers service and or charges there is no issue.

//.National Installer.// had no qualms about knocking on doors of homes with a bell box outside, and a perfectly good system inside and offering to take the system over, nothing illigal but not very nice tacticts towards fellow companies

if your good you don't loose many clients, and safe to assume you are concidered better than the outgoing company. on that basis imo you have a right to exercise your skills and commerce in protecing this client's property and person.

all's fair in love, war and business ethic's - so with your concience salved - sleep tight mat ;) .

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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We have a trade member in cornwell who will install you class one system with ssaib cert??
I dare say quite a few install class 1 systems as budget options, and fair enough if that's what his customer wants.? But how will that customer feel when he see's his complete alarm system purchaseable for

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Personally i dont think we should as 9 out of 10 jp cant understand the programming side, so the local company could get a call from them asking for advise and could gain a call out fee but if the info is available to them free then local companies may as well give free call outs and installs and forget all the years of training and sweat they have had to suffer all because some diy companies want to earn an extra couple of pounds. :sothere::xxx:

If a person buys a panel from a diy company let them contact the place they bought it from for advice and any problems they are having, as they have made the money on the product. The people who have had a pro system installed will then get good sound pro advice as they have gone to the expense of a good system.

lee

Hopefully when the diy companies get thousands of calls they might think twice about selling the panels. :banned:

lee

 

Lee Sutton

E-Mail: leesutton@centurianfire.co.uk

Website: www.centurianfire.co.uk

Phone: 0845 094 9870

CENTURIAN FIRE & SECURITY (part of centurian group limited)

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I am not sure what the difference is between a proffesional and do it your self panel. :unsure:

I went to the flm and asked could the installation engineer go back and install it properly so I can service it from a good working condition and he told me to do it myself :rolleyes:

But seriously, I don't think we should give too much info out to the public. Yes they can get it readily from other sorces so we need not become paranoidal about it.

However, if I was Joe Public and was looking at this site and I saw that the panel that I just bought off the shelf was being discussed to the point that my next door neighbour could come in and in a matter of seconds could default my alarm, I don't think I would be very happy :fear:

I think the numbers involved would not be suffiscient to worry about.

But there again, if this imformation is so easily available can the panels be righty described as security alarm panels as by definition secure denotes safe and perhaps secret from a physical and imformational point of view.

Must now go and take my anti-rambling tablets. :ninja:

Practice in the morning, practice at night. Practice in the evening, until you get it right.

Only make sure you are practising in the right way at the right time for it.

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....

However, if I was Joe Public and was looking at this site and I saw that the panel that I just bought off the shelf was being discussed to the point that my next door neighbour could come in and in a matter of seconds could default my alarm, I don't think I would be very happy :fear:

...

at least joe public would understand at this point he needs a new system..

(and/or installer)

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Personally i believe we should not give out total amounts of info on here. By all means help "joe public" but when they come up against a problem then we "charge" so to speak.

Imagine if everyone found this site, or others (like here i doubt), and got all the info they needed. Next thing we would have sparkies telling us how to do things, telecoms engineers showing the way to run cables, and geeks with a laptop saying thats impossible.

Oh we already do have that problem, dont we :P

The problem is we live in an age where people expect to have total control of their own lives, and to be told your system is yours paid for by your own sweat and tears, but you have no control over it..............and they didnt want it in the first place the insurers insisted.

YOU WORK OUT THE CUSTOMERS FRUSTRATION.....!

Another reason i feel we should not give out too much info is this (EEEK, Just realised this is public)

I am also a locksmith, want to know 5 easy tricks to bypass the common "Yales", soz Yale was a reference there, not a generalisation. Or the Chubb`s (going to be saying sorry a lot now), how about the good old Banham.

Once was called to a rouge alarm, typical keyholders were incorrect. Opened the ****** locks in under 45 seconds, killed the bells and as i was leaving with the police and enviromental health officer the owners turned up. They were told by neighbours they were fools and deservered the treatment they had recieved, best of all they told the owners their new locks they had boasted about took less than a minute to bypass.

Oops rambled there, moral of this story........Yes lets tell everyone how to do our jobs, whos 1st in line for the dole office then.............or prison. Dont we get vetted for a reason, For //.B.W.F.// Sake we even get vetted to become a trade member here. I dont see it as an exclusive club, however how many other people do you know who are allowed an intimacy with clients and knowledge of valuable items and codes (because we are trusted with codes for some reason) and not get tempted to do the wrong thing.

Think the last bit says it all

cheers

If i wasnt clear there, the answer was NO

PS You dont call a plumber out to fix your car do you, or you do :hmm:

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i wouldn't mind if we don't let joe public in at all but since they are here i don't see a problem with them being told how they can tamper with their own system.

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blimey did you know you were in the Jo Public Area with this question?
Of course I did.? Although I am mainly concerned with Trade Members opinions on this matter, I am also curious as to the Public's point of view, especially the DIY'ing members.
This topic will result in an artificial Vote due to its location.
I Disagree, if this topic had been placed in the Trade forums, the poll wouldn't have been un-biased. And it's outcome obvious.
I agree, this is not a question that should be inviting a public response.

I do not agree with giving out such information - whether its available from Screwfix or not, we should draw the line at anything that provides information on defaulting or "getting around" a panel or a system. Bear in mind also that giving information on a Grade 1 panel, (and yes some engineers fit them and certify them), may also be giving information on the same manufacturer's panels of a higher grade. If someone buys a panel from Screwfix then so be it, let him/her work it out - and remember we have already established that many other non-Grade 1 panels are available to the public ... Castle, Gardtec for example!

This Information is readilly available on many other sites, many online wholesalers freely distribute the user and engineer manuals for the equipment they sell. If they don't find the information they want here, then they will find it elsewhere. Surely descriptive advice from an engineer, is better than trial and error from the manual? If the panel is publically purchaseable, and the engineer manuals are freely available elsewhere online in PDF format for most ungraded or class 1 panels, then why as a security advice & information site with a large publc section do we have a problem with answering any questions we get asked.?

I agree we should draw the line at supplying Defaulting information, and supplying Engineer manuals

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Of course I did.? Although I am mainly concerned with Trade Members opinions on this matter, I am also curious as to the Public's point of view, especially the DIY'ing members.

I Disagree, if this topic had been placed in the Trade forums, the poll wouldn't have been un-biased. And it's outcome obvious.

This Information is readilly available on many other sites, many online wholesalers freely distribute the user and engineer manuals for the equipment they sell. If they don't find the information they want here, then they will find it elsewhere. Surely descriptive advice from an engineer, is better than trial and error from the manual? If the panel is publically purchaseable, and the engineer manuals are freely available elsewhere online in PDF format for most ungraded or class 1 panels, then why as a security advice & information site with a large publc section do we have a problem with answering any questions we get asked.?

I agree we should draw the line at supplying Defaulting information, and supplying Engineer manuals

But if the information is as you state, available on other sites. Then what are we keeping secret, just an observation.

As stated before, some damn fools going to pull the wrong wires and kill hmself.

cheers

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I Disagree, if this topic had been placed in the Trade forums, the poll wouldn't have been un-biased.And it's outcome obvious.

But presumably you are expecting people in the trade to give the advice if the restriction is relaxed on what we give info to.

So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line.

If the outcome is obvious then why ask the question?

The pole will be have an artificial result because virtually every member of the Public will want access to how to fix there own system or access to the engineering manual.

Who do you expect to support the questions the DIY's themselves or people in the trade?

There is only one result if the vote is left Public. Dave if you want to wideen the level of support then its up to you not the membership or the public, its you that would suffer repercussions if it goes wrong, as the owner of the site. If you want the site DIY just do it, trade guys will choose whether to participate or not.

Also if there buying so called DIY panels, why shouldn't they get the support from the people they are buying the panels from, they got paid and had the profit.

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The problem i see is some fool will rip out the mains and kill himself.

i see some fool driving a car 100mph and killing others.

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Also if there buying so called DIY panels, why shouldn't they get the support from the people they are buying the panels from, they got paid and had the profit.

The retailer can't give them support as they only shift boxes, if they can't understand the diy manual provided with the controls then have the choice to ring tech support (usally a premuim number) or post here being the "free" option.

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i see some fool driving a car 100mph and killing others.

Your point being?

Most common road deaths are achieved at 43 MPH, you work out the KPH.

The retailer can't give them support as they only shift boxes, if they can't understand the diy manual provided with the controls then have the choice to ring tech support (usally a premuim number) or post here being the "free" option.

So its fine to let a fool into a mains driven device? Not that customers are fools, they have more than us for a start, otherwise why have an expensive bit of kit.

For the most i feel the customer knows the service he is getting and does actually appreciate this, hence the ongoing contracts. The "cheapskates" who want to do a install and get stuck, well isnt this why the header stating, "We dont Give out manuals" there for a reason!

And we wonder why they introduced all the regs to limit false alarms................................

PPPPPP...................

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Your point being?

Most common road deaths are achieved at 43 MPH, you work out the KPH.

my point being that people actually drive their cars themselves eventhou many accidents happen when doing so. --> it is better they kill themselves while tampering their alarm before they kill other people overrunning them with a car. :bruce_h4h:

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my point being that people actually drive their cars themselves

don't you need to be trained & then tested if found competent you get a driving licence :rolleyes:

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err - havent you seen BWD in telly??!? and some of them have a drivers license..

besides - they give drivers license to women as well. how many you know who actually can drive???

:question:

don't you need to be trained & then tested if found competent you get a ...

:rolleyes:

that's what people here think about coldshirish "Security Installer Card" which is issued by police..

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err - havent you seen BWD in telly??!? and some of them have a drivers license..

shoot he's right

besides - they give drivers license to women as well. how many you know who actually can drive???

:question:

:hmm: none

next you'll be telling us that the men of coldshire can drive when its snow's unlike the uk where a half inch of snow and the country stops.

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....... However, if I was Joe Public and was looking at this site and I saw that the panel that I just bought off the shelf was being discussed to the point that my next door neighbour could come in and in a matter of seconds could default my alarm, I don't think I would be very happy :fear:

hi vince,

gardtec panels as others have the option to 'lock' or burn in the engineer code, so defaulting will not work if it is thus set up. yes i know 'we' can get over this but not the next door neighbour (unless he is one of us).

to default a panel would require openning it, so causing at least an internal tamper, or a full alarm if set, the rest of the defaulting proceedure will cause the siren to sound, obviously not discussing how its done here :rolleyes:

so i see no conflict

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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