morph Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Just so your selective vision doesn't have to work to hard: If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.? We have a trade member in cornwell who will install you class one system with ssaib cert?? I dare say quite a few install class 1 systems as budget options, and fair enough if that's what his customer wants.? But how will that customer feel when he see's his complete alarm system purchaseable for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 hi all, a little clarification by me as the waters are getting muddied again, outright, i do not like the client to play with engineer settings so natuarlly restricted access to a manual is prefered, i achieve this by putting it inside the panel usually. and i would not advise any client or owner to tinker or tamper with his system even if based on reading the the manual, that would be totally daft. but, i think they have the right to the manual on a system which is bought by them if they ask, unfortunately companies go out of buisness or sell out, even makers stop trading and he/she is left with an unsupported panel or an incomming service company who used abc panels not your xyz ones. i protect my systems with engineer code, and its burnt in, so defaulting will not open pandora's box for them and so hopefully will keep them away fro bits they do not fully understand and the ramifications. now if they want a code i will insert one, but with a signed letter as to the acknowledgement of the risks involved for them but only done that once so far, admitted i do not offer it, but wait to be asked. personaly i just do not see how they, or anyone else will gain any additional access to a system by having the engineer manual to hand, and i refer to properly installed and designed systems, not diy or electicians pj systems, lets face it, very few of these would be hard to 'knock over' by an averagly skilled thief even without a manual. i have been pm'd over one well put possibility, but imo an unlikely situation, so although i do not agree with the likelehood of scenario presented, i'm not going to discuss it in the public sector as it would be unwise. if you want to test it for yourself and discuss - then start a thread in trade. 'the names will be changed to protect the innocent' regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 personaly i just do not see how they, or anyone else will gain any additional access to a system by having the engineer manual to hand, and i refer to properly installed and designed systems, not diy or electicians pj systems, lets face it, very few of these would be hard to 'knock over' by an averagly skilled thief even without a manual. So Alan how do you show that a system has been designed correctly? How do you prove a system has been installed correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Just so your selective vision doesn't have to work to hard: If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.? imo NO!as to my standards, given the 'talk' on putting doors on test, my standards are not in question. As usual you avoid the question! We have asked several times now and it would seem you are unable to answer this question, despite you having an opinion on anything and everything you cant seem to answer a simple question. sorry mate, but i'm totally mystified by that remark, we are discussing the availability of engineering manuals in this thread, far from avoiding you question, i thought we should try to stay as close as we can to the original op's thread, so why would i need to launch into a full run down of my buisness and practice's here? all while keeping as best i can to the original discussion. if you want to start a new thread on 'me' please do so, but given the sensative nature of the posiible content please do so in 'trade' in its own thread (oui vey!) not here darling - people are watching me IMHO fitting control panels in a loft environment is bad practice and should not be done under any cricumstances. great, i agree with you on this and i also don't fit in roof lofts or airing cupboards either for that matter, but i was not discussing me was i? given attitude's and prevarications, why should i expose a carefully laid little 'gambit' ? which you hapened to spoilyou rotter! ...... But you again miss the point, we are talking about DIY systems! no, and with respect i think you have a little perhaps, i had oppened it up early on in reply to Dave's (post 2 or 3 i think) to all engineering manuals putting my kneck and private's out in full view to kick as only i can. i simply wondered why we are so protective and wanted sound reasoning as to why we with hold them back and i could then fall in line - thats was all really. Again you seem to be confused, you dont get information on how to service/maintain a system in the user manual for an alarm indeed you dont even get it in the Engineers Manual - WHY becuase most manufacturers expect the system to be maintained by a professional Installer/engineer. If you expect car manufacturers to tell you how to service/ maintain your car in then you are sadly deluded, all you get is basic checks/maintenance to do. no not confussed, read in the context as you missed my thrust, if you buy a new car you get an owners manual, you don't get a workshop manual, but you will get a service record with a periods and a stamp area, and what is done in those services for the dealer to stamp. now based on that, if i go buy a Haynes manual (so our engineers manual), i could perform those actions myself if i want to, regardless i have no experience, equipment of knowledge of how or why or even the lack of 'common sense' in doing it, but legaly its my perogative to do so or not - and then kill someone in an accident as suddenly - no brakes. with a meter, i can test every voltage to my hearts content, and the spec is in the manual just like a car with the oil and totque pressures. do you now see what i was getting at, infact you support my answer above to some extent, and i have now expanded it a bit more Yes you do get the full "Engineers Manual" in the box now I wonder why its called that hmm.gif well let me help you a little then, it defines the setting up proceedures in the engineering part of the procedure as from from the every day setting unsetting proceedures, but then some i have seeen in the past have combined manuals too - hope that helps you out a bit, Manufacturers sell through TRADE DISTRIBUTION, why do they do that, could it be that they intend that their products are only available to the professional trade and as such all the documentation providded is for the use of the said professional trade. some manufacturers still adopt that approach stringently, and more are not doing so by the week it seems, perhaps is the backdraught of En or DT 254 regs, making 'real' systems too expensive to have installed with 17 amp batteries professionally. they are not chritie's and although we may cringe they are there to make money, the common market makes it tough to keep prices down unless you bulk, but thats another 'chat' and i'm no international company either No again I may be making asumptions here but as you have never indicated what standards you install to....... i thought we was on about engineering manuals, but rather than be accused again of avoiding an issue - as if well my standards are very high and on this you will have to just trust me,you will be in good company too, with most instals alarms or otherwise by the usual routine of meet client, discuss, send estimate and specification, discuss, do job get paid. but with respect, as i do not answer to you or anyone else on this forum being very security minded i tend to keep most of my works and practic's private incidentally as legally olblidged under the Data Protection Act, but also thats a lot safer for the clients and me imo. So in simple terms what have you sold the customer? again a question that can only be answered by reading the estimate/quotation. not ever seen an estimate or quote actually protect any bulding - this a new technology then? if so give me a web link please. as it happens an alarm will never ever stop an intrussion, only deter it, or hopefully make that visit shorter than it would have been witout one, a fine point but we cn not condone mantraps. Only a fool would sell a profesionally installed system with a engineers manual included. maybe, and at last we allude to the real thread, so why do YOU say that? is all i'm asking is you support that statement - just asking not doing mind games or arfurs strong arm methods you so fearful of. i might be going out on a limb a bit here, but for a manufacturer to have accredidation, there kit has to conform to all relevant standards, if we agree on that, i think those standards include the supply of an engineers manual, so that become part and parcel of the control panel as it's included data (can't think of the proper term - ah got it - intellecual rites) not claiming this as a fact i can proove but i think i'm correct. But again we are digressing as we are talking about DIY/Grade 1 panels, my original point is still very valid and one that you failed to recognise, "So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line." a clever point well put and and a real big 'ups' to you, but imo its not relevant within this thread - the availability of manuals, i had already 'thrown open' the discussion to cover any engineer manual (meaning commonly supplied in the box not bespoke systems). I also agree with Rogers point, Dave has on a number of occasions indicated what he would like to do, but one reason or another has not made a firm descision, I suspect that he knows what way the site should go, but is conceous of spoiling a good thing if it doesn't work. But ultimately its his descision, not ours as we can choose to anwere topics or not. and i am in full agreement with you in the above I still feel that this topic should be trade only as they are the ones who would be answering or correcting posts made. again you make a fair point, imo also think it could have been better served in trade, then having gathered opinions, placed in public area's or not. Alan once again you have hijacked a post with your own strong opinion and seeked to enforce this upon people regardless of whether it is right or wrong, please shut up for once and allow other people to post without fear of you disecting there post. i don't mean to hijack post's honestly, and i don't strong arm or enforce 'arfurs' way on anyone intentionally. i will always question an opinion if i do not agree with or understand it - why would anyone air an opinion if not to discuss it? i tend to show why i feel that way on occassions, is that such a bad thing then? so me shutting up is not a likely option, the best way to do that is with sound argument, best you avoid exageration or angst and forget the snide quipe's people, i don't get impressed by it but i might come after you if you do. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 So Alan how do you show that a system has been designed correctly?How do you prove a system has been installed correctly? hi alarmgard, now excuse my obvious ignorance and stupidity, but wtf has this got to do with allowing engineer manuals to be sent out in the wild from this site - please exspalian as i'm finally admitting to being confussed ? regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Just so your selective vision doesn't have to work to hard:imo NO! As usual you avoid the question! We have asked several times now and it would seem you are unable to answer this question, despite you having an opinion on anything and everything you cant seem to answer a simple question. sorry mate, but i'm totally mystified by that remark, we are discussing the availability of engineering manuals in this thread, far from avoiding you question, i thought we should try to stay as close as we can to the original op's thread, so why would i need to launch into a full run down of my buisness and practice's here? all while keeping as best i can to the original discussion. if you want to start a new thread on 'me' please do so, but given the sensative nature of the posiible content please do so in 'trade' in its own thread (oui vey!) not here darling - people are watching me No Alan you still miss the point, you frequently make reference to the way you install systems and to the standards you work too, well as an installer I like many others would llike to you clarify what you mean by "standard" in simple terms what do you do to distinguishish yourself from a) A cowboy installer B) acreddited installer or c) a DIYer. You give advice frequently on the forums that I and many others have questioned, perhaps this is due to you being stuck in a time warp. So I hope you can understand why it would be prudent for you to elaborate on what you actually mean, as otherwise we can only make opinions on what you say on these forums and observations of what we may or may not have seen of your installations. Likewise to that this information is not neccessary on seeks to cloud the issue, and again this causes us to make opinions and judgements about you. IMHO fitting control panels in a loft environment is bad practice and should not be done under any cricumstances. great, i agree with you on this and i also don't fit in roof lofts or airing cupboards either for that matter, but i was not discussing me was i? given attitude's and prevarications, why should i expose a carefully laid little 'gambit' ? which you hapened to spoilyou rotter! Very strange that you now agree with me, when in your original post, you infer that you install in lofts, a bit of back tracking as usual. ...... But you again miss the point, we are talking about DIY systems! no, and with respect i think you have a little perhaps, i had oppened it up early on in reply to Dave's (post 2 or 3 i think) to all engineering manuals putting my kneck and private's out in full view to kick as only i can. i simply wondered why we are so protective and wanted sound reasoning as to why we with hold them back and i could then fall in line - thats was all really. But again Alan you miss the point of the orignal topic, its about what level of help we give not whether we give them engineering manuals. Again you seem to be confused, you dont get information on how to service/maintain a system in the user manual for an alarm indeed you dont even get it in the Engineers Manual - WHY becuase most manufacturers expect the system to be maintained by a professional Installer/engineer. If you expect car manufacturers to tell you how to service/ maintain your car in then you are sadly deluded, all you get is basic checks/maintenance to do. no not confussed, read in the context as you missed my thrust, if you buy a new car you get an owners manual, you don't get a workshop manual, but you will get a service record with a periods and a stamp area, and what is done in those services for the dealer to stamp. now based on that, if i go buy a Haynes manual (so our engineers manual), i could perform those actions myself if i want to, regardless i have no experience, equipment of knowledge of how or why or even the lack of 'common sense' in doing it, but legaly its my perogative to do so or not - and then kill someone in an accident as suddenly - no brakes. with a meter, i can test every voltage to my hearts content, and the spec is in the manual just like a car with the oil and totque pressures. do you now see what i was getting at, infact you support my answer above to some extent, and i have now expanded it a bit more You answer your own points here, but remember we are talking DIY systems not professionally installed. Remeber as well a pro system comes with a service reccord to indeed may DIY systems come with one also, your point is? You can go to a bookshop and buy a book on how to install and service alarms. A haynes manual is no where near a full manufacturers workshop manual. Your point doesn't make any relevance to the post it only seeks to cloud the issue Yes you do get the full "Engineers Manual" in the box now I wonder why its called that hmm.gif well let me help you a little then, it defines the setting up proceedures in the engineering part of the procedure as from from the every day setting unsetting proceedures, but then some i have seeen in the past have combined manuals too - hope that helps you out a bit, Times Change Alan, the past is the past, we are talking about the present. Manufacturers sell through TRADE DISTRIBUTION, why do they do that, could it be that they intend that their products are only available to the professional trade and as such all the documentation providded is for the use of the said professional trade. some manufacturers still adopt that approach stringently, and more are not doing so by the week it seems, perhaps is the backdraught of En or DT 254 regs, making 'real' systems too expensive to have installed with 17 amp batteries professionally. they are not chritie's and although we may cringe they are there to make money, the common market makes it tough to keep prices down unless you bulk, but thats another 'chat' and i'm no international company either But alan you clearly dont seem to understand the concept of the Standards, perhaps that is why you cannot state what you work to. Real systems do not neccessarilly have to have 17amp hour batteries. A professional installer would be buying enough product to secure reansonable discounts in any case every installer is in the same boat for the size of company that they operate. No again I may be making asumptions here but as you have never indicated what standards you install to....... i thought we was on about engineering manuals, but rather than be accused again of avoiding an issue - as if well my standards are very high and on this you will have to just trust me,you will be in good company too, with most instals alarms or otherwise by the usual routine of meet client, discuss, send estimate and specification, discuss, do job get paid. but with respect, as i do not answer to you or anyone else on this forum being very security minded i tend to keep most of my works and practic's private incidentally as legally olblidged under the Data Protection Act, but also thats a lot safer for the clients and me imo. So what are your standards Alan what do you work to, yet again you have made refference and again I ask the question. But no doubt you will avoid the question completely. But I know one thing if i was a prospective customer I would be most concerned that you openly fail to answer a basicc question that neither impacts on the level of security that you provide to your customers or indeed as you put it the Data Protection Act. So in simple terms what have you sold the customer? again a question that can only be answered by reading the estimate/quotation. not ever seen an estimate or quote actually protect any bulding - this a new technology then? if so give me a web link please. as it happens an alarm will never ever stop an intrussion, only deter it, or hopefully make that visit shorter than it would have been witout one, a fine point but we cn not condone mantraps. Again Alan your ignorance is amazing, perhaps this is deliberate, you have made refference to being a union rep before and now i understand why many disputes that seemed simple to resolve were not. Only a fool would sell a profesionally installed system with a engineers manual included. maybe, and at last we allude to the real thread, so why do YOU say that? is all i'm asking is you support that statement - just asking not doing mind games or arfurs strong arm methods you so fearful of. Alan you have supported my arguement well without further intervention by me. i might be going out on a limb a bit here, but for a manufacturer to have accredidation, there kit has to conform to all relevant standards, if we agree on that, i think those standards include the supply of an engineers manual, so that become part and parcel of the control panel as it's included data (can't think of the proper term - ah got it - intellecual rites) not claiming this as a fact i can proove but i think i'm correct. Sorry Alan now you are starting to go on about standards again, so that we are in no doubt can you let me have the standard number and page/paragraph number that supports this point. After all you wouldn't want us to be arguing a different point from you. Thanking you in anticipation! or were you just thinking again as to what! if and might they be! But again we are digressing as we are talking about DIY/Grade 1 panels, my original point is still very valid and one that you failed to recognise, "So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line." a clever point well put and and a real big 'ups' to you, but imo its not relevant within this thread - the availability of manuals, i had already 'thrown open' the discussion to cover any engineer manual (meaning commonly supplied in the box not bespoke systems). But again Alan you seem to miss the point, As I said before only a fool would sell a box with an engineer manual, But as professional installers we sell a SYSTEM not a box, that system is made up of components, the SYSTEM is detailed in the ESTIMATE/QUOTATION, this is what they accept not a pile of boxes. To use your example of the car, a car is made up of lots of components big and small, they all come in there respective packaging some with some without manuals. Do we get all thes manuals when we buy the car NO because we have bought a specification that results in a finished car. I also agree with Rogers point, Dave has on a number of occasions indicated what he would like to do, but one reason or another has not made a firm descision, I suspect that he knows what way the site should go, but is conceous of spoiling a good thing if it doesn't work. But ultimately its his descision, not ours as we can choose to anwere topics or not. and i am in full agreement with you in the above I still feel that this topic should be trade only as they are the ones who would be answering or correcting posts made. again you make a fair point, imo also think it could have been better served in trade, then having gathered opinions, placed in public area's or not. Alan once again you have hijacked a post with your own strong opinion and seeked to enforce this upon people regardless of whether it is right or wrong, please shut up for once and allow other people to post without fear of you disecting there post. i don't mean to hijack post's honestly, and i don't strong arm or enforce 'arfurs' way on anyone intentionally. i will always question an opinion if i do not agree with or understand it - why would anyone air an opinion if not to discuss it? i tend to show why i feel that way on occassions, is that such a bad thing then? Again Alan you have hijacked a thread, you sought to change what the original topic was about, you then disect and @rgue parts of posts to suit your own tunnel vision. You say that you are happy to and discuss points made, but you fundementaly lack the abillity to accept that sometimes you are wrong ( nobody is perfect and I like many others are open to the constant learning that this industry brings to us, so in reallity we do not know all the answers all of the time. We have got to ask and be educated by those arround us. so me shutting up is not a likely option, the best way to do that is with sound argument, best you avoid exageration or angst and forget the snide quipe's people, i don't get impressed by it but i might come after you if you do. Your welcome to come after me whenever you want! if thats what floats your boat, my position will remain unchanged, your are willing to @rgue points just for the sake of arguement, you are unable to back up your arguement with sound an proven practice or indeed industry standards and when questioned you only wish to put forward pointless agruement, you often request that we prove your way wrong, but that to me would seem that you dont actually know the correct way and seek to get other trade members to give you an on the job education. regs alan hi alarmgard,now excuse my obvious ignorance and stupidity, but wtf has this got to do with allowing engineer manuals to be sent out in the wild from this site - please exspalian as i'm finally admitting to being confussed ? regs alan Alan my post above makes it clear above why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 Alan my post above makes it clear above why. well not to me it don't regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 No suprise there then Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 QFAA lot of what he types doesnt add up, make sense or is often incorrect but ive given up on that now! If manufactures were quite happy to supply manuals to JP they would make them available for download...........they dont in general, why should we? hi ian, maybe it's true and perhaps i don't always explain to clearly but i try at least. you have said something which i think has a very creditable arguement, so with your permission can i expand it a bit further please -: why do manufacturers simply not send out the panel without the engineering manual included? if your theory is right (and i'm not knocking you) and they were being consistant in folowing through, it would make good sense surely, then jp would be severly hindered or stopped from this 'easy' route. as registered installers we can download them or have them sent to the office, we might even get up to date and correct versions - now that would be a new thing in its own right imo. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cturner24 Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 I'm a 'joe public....I think you've got a point but it's perhaps about stricking a balance between being helpful to those in need and being selective about what info is provided. Common sense should prevail as you do have businesses to protect. That said, lets be honest, it's not hard to get the installers manuals, they are generally widely available on the net if you look. At some point most of us need help with something technical eg. alarms, boilers or whatever and the danger is is that if everybody is very protective about sharing info, it just becomes a nonsense frankly and in any case there will always be someone who is willing to help. I'm grateful for the help I got today, very grateful and certainly prepared to call engineers out were necessary....but the practical side of me at least attempts to resolve the issue first. In this case I did, but I can guarantee that in the next 2 months I'll need expert help on something and will happily pay for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.