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52 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we relax our views on the information we give out on publically purchasable alarm control panels.

    • Yes
      8
    • No
      26
    • Don't care either way.
      12


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ok tell me how richl?, i've not seen a manual that works by prox - yet , but then i don't use galaxei's.

so soz mate, you gotta exsplain that statement.

regs

alan

Now I'm being pedantic, but Galaxy is with a 'y' and rjbsec is Roger, not Jef! (Sorry. but it's annoying!)

Anyway, for an answer to the above, read my last post.

If you don't know......ask.

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Guest RICHL
ok tell me how richl?, i've not seen a manual that works by prox - yet , but then i don't use galaxei's.

so soz mate, you gotta exsplain that statement.

regs

alan

PM sent!

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If it isn't broken, don't fix it!

I think we have got the balance correct on the site and I wouldn't like to see it changed.

hi alarm Guard,

i don't mean or intend to argue with the right of anyones heart felt opinion on this, but i'd like to know what facts it is based on.

personally i can see no danger, reasons given in previous post's, i've not yet seen anyone give a real damming reason to withhold engineer manuals on this site?

regs

alan

Now I'm being pedantic, but Galaxy is with a 'y' and rjbsec is Roger, not Jef! (Sorry. but it's annoying!)

Anyway, for an answer to the above, read my last post.

like i said i don't use 'em, and rjbsec don't like me much anyway :P and anyway don't change the subject - have enough trouble from the guy who say's he's regulated or is that his regular?

but now corected that post 'cause i'm respectful i am

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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My way of thinking is....

A decent commercial monitored system should be very hard or even impossible to defeat, even with a good deal of knowledge. Some monitored commercials can be defeated quite easily with a medium amount of knowledge.

Most bells only house alarms can be defeated fairly quickly with a little bit of knowledge. Fair enough they may ring, but if you are able to default and unset it within a minute or so, a lot of people will ignore it.

QFA!!

If a clever crook has access to manuals, they may be able to work out how and which systems could be defeated. Supplying some info does not carry the same risk IMO. For example, the recent post about adding a RKP to a galaxy.....I see no real security risk in answering this guys question, however I don't think we should give him the manual.

Clever crook would buy that system with manuals and have some practise.. So no need to worry about manuals.

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QFA!!

Clever crook would buy that system with manuals and have some practise.. So no need to worry about manuals.

and don't forget he would also do a full size mock up of the site, complete with all the detectors and the actual program lifted from the panel which he magic'd our because he had the manual - damm thats where it all falls apart again :cry:

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Clever crook would buy that system with manuals and have some practise.. So no need to worry about manuals.

Which is why we have such contempt for manufacturers that sell to the public!

If you don't know......ask.

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Which is why we have such contempt for manufacturers that sell to the public!

i thought it was due to our margin's but that sounds much better thou!!

why not to support only DIY panels and manuals then? clear list of equipment we are allowed to "help tampering with"..

:question:

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i thought it was due to our margin's but that sounds much better thou!!

why not to support only DIY panels and manuals then? clear list of equipment we are allowed to "help tampering with"..

:question:

Well that's kinda what Dave's suggesting, without the manuals though.

If you don't know......ask.

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When you look at it realistically, it would be nigh on impossible for any potential intruder to access a reasonably well installed system of any grade would'nt it, even with manuals, tools and some knowledge of the system? Assuming the intruder doesn't know the engineer code he may aswell just use the manual to wipe his //.B.W.F.// with unless he can tamper the end station, because it's useless otherwise! All this is before he has gained access to the premises and discovered the location of the panel which should be reasonably concealed.

Even if he manages to default the system, when the customer goes to set it and his code does'nt work, would'nt he phone an engineer? We'd all like to think so... Burglars are more likely to resort to tried and tested methods or circumventing detection, which I'm sure you've all seen before. I think we're giving them more credit than they deserve here IMO.

That said, I still don't think the manual should even come with the panel for proffesional gear and I do try to limit the info I give out in the public forums.

Trade Member

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Your avarage engineer could disable 99% of the ade range in about 3 secondsl longer than it takes to get the lid off.

or open the manual :whistle:

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Fair enough if you're going to do it "that way", but my point is having a manual does'nt make it much easier to get round a system on the face of it.

A garden gnome could probably disable anything made by ADE.

Trade Member

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So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line.
with respect, we are drifting from the original question by overcomplication and some exageration, by this i don't mean your example is not valid as an example of grading perils, but has no relevance to the availability of engineer manuals or design programming advice being given out.

As usual you have only read part of the topic and formed an opinion, Dave said he would suggest that we support panels that were DIY or Grade 1, another member stated that other members actually sell and certificate grade 1 installs. So the point is very relevant as the final grading of system is dependent on the lowest grade of component installed.

Also if there buying so called DIY panels, why shouldn't they get the support from the people they are buying the panels from, they got paid and had the profit.
not quite so, as many item's you buy iare never fully supported, buy a car and the seller is not commited to teach to drive for instance or even check if you can, only it's roadworthy and to honour any warrenty. now would that not fall under 'technical support' in you view? of course not.
They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off, same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car.
pardon Roger! why this bile, unregulated never equals un-professional imo i've seen and worked for to many regulated copanies to know the truth but this is the public area so lets keep that our little secret.

an ill informed and silly answer, based mainly on spite and assumption, and with no actual knowledge of how i conduct my buisness, or how many installs have you actually inspected of mine then?

so just answer the politly put question - politely and with the respct shown to you like a real man would do,especially if you wish respect in turn from this forum let alone me.

i suggest you draw from your vast and obviously superior array of regulated 'professional' wisdom and show us how, that should be very simple for given your qualifications. make not only me, but everone else agree with you - as if you had any such talent!

so i assume that's to hard for you? and you realised you have no real answer, so resort to cat calling - on a simple question :no: , based on the truth and fear 'arfur's' got you good and proper :yes:

answer - or find a real excuse not to - regulated or not!.

regs

alan

Alan we have asked this question several times now and you have NEVER answered, what standard or standards do you install your intruder alarm systems to?

When you look at it realistically, it would be nigh on impossible for any potential intruder to access a reasonably well installed system of any grade would'nt it, even with manuals, tools and some knowledge of the system? Assuming the intruder doesn't know the engineer code he may aswell just use the manual to wipe his //.B.W.F.// with unless he can tamper the end station, because it's useless otherwise! All this is before he has gained access to the premises and discovered the location of the panel which should be reasonably concealed.

Are diy systems well installed? some yes majority no.

If a diy person has gone to the extent of installing there own alarm, its umlikely that they will call an engineer at the first sign of a fault, in fact this site is an example of the lenghts that people go to before calling out an engineer, did you see the post earlier tonight of the householder that bought a chip programmer to change settings when a simple solution was obvious.

But do panels get easilly concealed, mosts houses have them fitted in only a couple of places, most new houses that have systems fitted are identical locations and all with the same codes. many customers dont even know how to change the default user code despite having the manual.

Even if he manages to default the system, when the customer goes to set it and his code does'nt work, would'nt he phone an engineer? We'd all like to think so... Burglars are more likely to resort to tried and tested methods or circumventing detection, which I'm sure you've all seen before. I think we're giving them more credit than they deserve here IMO.

A diy customer is more likely to wait until later in the week when they have the weekend or time off be before looking for the fault.

That said, I still don't think the manual should even come with the panel for proffesional gear and I do try to limit the info I give out in the public forums.

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As usual you have only read part of the topic and formed an opinion, Dave said he would suggest that we support panels that were DIY or Grade 1, another member stated that other members actually sell and certificate grade 1 installs. So the point is very relevant as the final grading of system is dependent on the lowest grade of component installed.

They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off, same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car.

Alan we have asked this question several times now and you have NEVER answered, what standard or standards do you install your intruder alarm systems to?

well lets see where i went wrong?

i have cut and pasted the op of Daves below, the boxes and red type just made my eye's bleed

=================================================

Now that a lot of what we once considered TRADE only panels are being sold by the likes of Screwfix and numerous online retailers, should we be re-thinking what information/advice we are willing to discuss in these public forums.?

Should the fact these panels are easilly purchasable by the public, and that most of these panels manuals are readilly available online at quite a few sites mean that any related queries should be up for discussion..?

=================================================

now correct me if i'm wrong, and excuse me if i am but i openned that up in the very next post to cover ALL engineer manuals being available, and how would that lessen the security of any system, ok i should have said perhaps PRO system so strike me down now :rolleyes: , so now inform me what have i not read or misunderstood - but save me the boxes please and the RED TYPE.

as to my standards, given the 'talk' on putting doors on test, my standards are not in question.

but lets kick that about a bit -:

a pro system - well one installed by me anyway - would be hard to get to the panel at any speed without a confirmed signal being sent - i ask do you put a contact on the door or loft trap where the main panel is to give a confirmed signal? so hows YOUR standards looking now then? :hmm: glass houses and stones or what!

now a DIY system may not be so well sited or protected, but then they did not pay to have the pro advice and took a gamble - thats their perogative and risk.

my reference to buying a car was to demonstrate the point where it is argued 'reasonable support' not unlimited.

now for your example - 'They dont ask us how to switch a system on and off' - really? you do surprise me - they should not need to ask - i.e. a pro installer shows them during customer training, but then you do not know this is a standard proceedure then and part of a professional instal - regulated or not?

and this bit - 'same as you dont ask the car manufacturer how to service or maintain the car' WTF no, not if i'm doing it myself i expect to be able to look it up in a ruddy owners manual at least. now with veicles i have noticed for a long time its not the norm to be given a full factory workshop manual with a new car. but please correct me if i'm wrong but it is the norm to get a full engineers manual in an alarm control panel carton - supplied by the manufacturer who has happened to design it, and see's no issue with it being there.

now can i just allude a tad to a recent thread which reasoned 'if its an allowed option within the design of a BS/En panel then its a legal option'. so the manual on that basis is allowed.

ok, any more off piest questions i can help you with? - or can YOU answer the OP properly and my initial posted question?

now go on, i bet you could if you really really tried very very hard - oh well perhaps not or you would have done by now :rolleyes:

regs

alan

///waits for keyboard to cool down - kicks dog who bite's me, now see what you did :ranting:

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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but save me the boxes please and the RED TYPE.

no

but please correct me if i'm wrong but it is the norm to get a full engineers manual in an alarm control panel carton -

hey alan, according to your posts your a 595 man?

never seen one shipped with any thing but that double sided single sheet of paper :hmm:

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Actually Alan your standards are in question and have been on this forum for some considerable time.

QFA

A lot of what he types doesnt add up, make sense or is often incorrect but ive given up on that now!

If manufactures were quite happy to supply manuals to JP they would make them available for download...........they dont in general, why should we?

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... you have told us that your work is not inspected by a UKAS accredited inspectorate so I put you outside of the large number of installation companies in the UK that open themselves up to inspection

yep - only transparency can prove you are right.

and work to agreed standards and codes of practice.

in case of alan i wouldn't be too afraid of that but tell me the standard or code of practise which couldn't be improved?

You see Alan your verbal diarrhoea does not make you right -

:question:

if he is right he is right and the fact he isn't inspected by anyone doesn't make him wrong either. blind eyed trust to inspectorates is wrong.

just because you post longer and have four times as many replies as anyone else doesn't make you right. You speak from your own perspective and do not represent the vast majority of professional installers who are working hard every day to improve the credibility of the industry and instill confidence in the public who use our services.

Posting information on a public Internet forum about matters that could conceivably affect the integrity of someone elses home or business security system, or which may be perceived by anyone as doing so, does not improve the credibility of the industry or instill confidence in its workforce ... professional companies should not be thinking of doing that.

funny - i thought it was a law that you have to give customer everything that is in the box? are you now trying to tell us we should break the law? how professional is that?

i do not see any reason to give engineers manual to end user. they do not (ok - RARELY) have knowledge nor training to understand what it says anyway AND therefore it will just cause more questions and trouble if they have it --> reason we won't give it out voluntarily.

usually my customer says that in case i am not anymore in business he can ask someone else to repair it in case and then he needs a manual. how stupid is that???

1) HE doesn't need the manual (but the new installer/service engineer)

2) Engineer doesn't need it since he has it anyway if he is pro (and why would anyone want a DIYer touch his alarm system)

next what they want is the codes with what ever reason they are able to figure out while i am leaving. never they wanted them after i give them a paper stating that there is absolutely not any kind of warranty and ALL communications and work regarding the alarm from the moment on when they get the codes are chargeable.

althou i don't see a point why we should not give out manuals which are anyway available everywhere. if people won't get manuals they go elsewhere and then come back with their silly questions anyway. if we don't want to support them then let's close joe public out.

of and forgot to say that first they get the wrong manual, then wrong version etc. and bother us with stupid questions like "why doesn't ver 2.1 manual have relative info to 3.1.. blah blah blah..." :ranting:

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Well Roger, lets take a look shall we - now what all this has to do with having a manual making a system less secure is beyond me and you have still chosen to ignore or by-pass the question, i see it now you are simple throwing up a smoke screen trying to desperately use what ever straw it is - but here go's

My comment was not "bile" neither was it "ill-informed and silly", "cat-calling", impolite or disrespectful.

hmmm Roger so writing -----,

"You work outside of the regulated field of installation practice, I do not expect you to look at things from a truly professional standpoint.

now correct me if i'm wrong but that indicates a tendenecy to tarnish me and with a broad brush, now perhaps i'm a bit over sensative, but i take that as an unwarrented insult, but i'm also thick skinned too.

Professional installation companies in the UK are regulated through a UKAS accredited inspectorate.

so that won't be 'cat calling' then or in any way even couched as a slight - meow come's to mind

Whoever you are

i'm alan taylor, and arfur_mo try to keep up please

and whatever work you do, you have told us that your work is not inspected by a UKAS accredited inspectorate so I put you outside of the large number of installation companies in the UK that open themselves up to inspection and work to agreed standards and codes of practice.

and you say i got overactive 'verbals' - so whats you point? working outside of an organisition is not to say i or anyone else do not keep up to or exceed standards is it? my inspection is by the clients, my rewards are further recommendations and constant orders, now you might say they do not know any better and i'd agree - because feel and know i am the best there is.

but really Roger, this is a new or at best a re-openned thread from my earlier days, trying to be used by you to discredit me in some way and perhaps rally the troups of the old gaurd.

try instead answering the question - as its your cred going out the window imo not mine, some like me prefer to be judged on what we actually do and thats my perogative, not what we 'say' we do by brandishing an inspectorate badge and thats your perogative and by that i mean no disrepect to all within such inspectorates or the inspectorates themselve.

that is imo a fair and honest precept to trade within. my company name is Eye 2 Eye and needs no further exsplanation why i chose that name. for me, any inspectorate is only as good as it's worst installers installtion engineer, and i for one don't like being associated with the worst, but thats up to the individuals, perhaps like you who happy with that siuation.

so in truth, another attempted silly insult bordering on the slanderous by suggesting as i am not in an inspectorate then by default i am not a professional, so where doe's that pearl wizdomed reasoning come from? and how do you support such bios clap trap - remember i asked you how many of MY installations have you inspected - and do YOU fit a contact on the cupboard or trap door where the controls are?? or you have not answered as you realise my standards bleach you out?

and while you at now answering those questions - answer it the original thread.

meanwhile Roger, step outside take a deep breath of reality and have a good look, as you are under a deep misconception caused by bios and the sheer fear of your leaving you 'street cred' (as if) in tatters due to someone who can answer you.

Many Non-inspected companies are none the less Professional installers and keeping very high standards, but seeking to exceed them, and just like me who care and take great pride in what and how they do their work.

here we go again with more of your silly remarks -:

You see Alan your verbal diarrhoea does not make you right

so show me where i am wrong - if you can! with me yiou get quality too :yes:

- just because you post longer

well i do like to be clear, but your not helping me

and have four times as many replies as anyone else doesn't make you right.

and when would that make me wrong then?

You speak from your own perspective

true, but then don't you from yours?

and do not represent the vast majority of professional installers

nope don't remember ever saying i did - so are you claiming to, if so by what authority?

who are working hard every day to improve the credibility of the industry and instill confidence in the public who use our services.

and i am no different, i just don't were any badge. its actually what i do, not what others (inspectorates) say i will do and don't always (based on true experiences not assumptions).

Posting information on a public Internet forum about matters that could conceivably affect the integrity of someone elses home or business security system,

and where have i actually done that? - post numbers only please and i'll go back and read them

or which may be perceived by anyone as doing so,

so now its anyone? not just enginneers or professionals then? Mr Brown the road sweeper will enjoy such a power to silence me i bet!

does not improve the credibility of the industry or instill confidence in its workforce ... professional companies should not be thinking of doing that.

i bet most professional campanies DO think about doing just THAT and pro-actively, still i like your honesty for a change is refreshing. (well and truly shot yourself in the butt with that one Roger imo).

Actually Alan your standards are in question and have been on this forum for some considerable time.

fine, so are yours based i fear based on your previuos sentence, i'll let the inspectorate companies sort you out with some good advice, meanwhile keep your replies to those thoughts that have either some common sense or at least basis on proof, and not assumption.

so, having got that off our chest's lets turn to the question in hand, i.e. -:

how will having access to an engineers manual reduce the security of a system, even if it was a 'prox' which in my limited ability i have not seen but i am limited, it would have to be in range.

now if this is so devasting to exsplain in public, by all means pm your answer to me and i will acknowledge it in this forum (not repeat it), and fully in the trade area - so go for it Roger stop using deflection or confusion tacticts, here's you chance i'm calling 'check' (i play chess really good) so lets see you call 'mate' on me. now given me being a low quality (because i'm not in an inspectorate) no good cowbay company with no standards whatsoever, that should be really easy.

i'm waiting........and so is every one else i bet :yes:

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Just so your selective vision doesn't have to work to hard:

If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.?
We have a trade member in cornwell who will install you class one system with ssaib cert??
I dare say quite a few install class 1 systems as budget options, and fair enough if that's what his customer wants.? But how will that customer feel when he see's his complete alarm system purchaseable for
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hi all, a little clarification by me as the waters are getting muddied again,

outright, i do not like the client to play with engineer settings so natuarlly restricted access to a manual is prefered, i achieve this by putting it inside the panel usually.

and i would not advise any client or owner to tinker or tamper with his system even if based on reading the the manual, that would be totally daft.

but, i think they have the right to the manual on a system which is bought by them if they ask, unfortunately companies go out of buisness or sell out, even makers stop trading and he/she is left with an unsupported panel or an incomming service company who used abc panels not your xyz ones.

i protect my systems with engineer code, and its burnt in, so defaulting will not open pandora's box for them and so hopefully will keep them away fro bits they do not fully understand and the ramifications. now if they want a code i will insert one, but with a signed letter as to the acknowledgement of the risks involved for them but only done that once so far, admitted i do not offer it, but wait to be asked.

personaly i just do not see how they, or anyone else will gain any additional access to a system by having the engineer manual to hand, and i refer to properly installed and designed systems, not diy or electicians pj systems, lets face it, very few of these would be hard to 'knock over' by an averagly skilled thief even without a manual.

i have been pm'd over one well put possibility, but imo an unlikely situation, so although i do not agree with the likelehood of scenario presented, i'm not going to discuss it in the public sector as it would be unwise.

if you want to test it for yourself and discuss - then start a thread in trade.

'the names will be changed to protect the innocent'

:P

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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personaly i just do not see how they, or anyone else will gain any additional access to a system by having the engineer manual to hand, and i refer to properly installed and designed systems, not diy or electicians pj systems, lets face it, very few of these would be hard to 'knock over' by an averagly skilled thief even without a manual.

So Alan how do you show that a system has been designed correctly?

How do you prove a system has been installed correctly?

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Just so your selective vision doesn't have to work to hard:

If it's Class 1, it's a DIY panel..So as PROFFESIONAL'S should we be installing DIY equipment.?
imo NO!
as to my standards, given the 'talk' on putting doors on test, my standards are not in question.

As usual you avoid the question! We have asked several times now and it would seem you are unable to answer this question, despite you having an opinion on anything and everything you cant seem to answer a simple question.

sorry mate, but i'm totally mystified by that remark, we are discussing the availability of engineering manuals in this thread, far from avoiding you question, i thought we should try to stay as close as we can to the original op's thread, so why would i need to launch into a full run down of my buisness and practice's here? all while keeping as best i can to the original discussion.

if you want to start a new thread on 'me' please do so, but given the sensative nature of the posiible content please do so in 'trade' in its own thread (oui vey!) not here darling - people are watching me

IMHO fitting control panels in a loft environment is bad practice and should not be done under any cricumstances.

great, i agree with you on this and i also don't fit in roof lofts or airing cupboards either for that matter, but i was not discussing me was i? given attitude's and prevarications, why should i expose a carefully laid little 'gambit' ? which you hapened to spoilyou rotter! :P

...... But you again miss the point, we are talking about DIY systems!

no, and with respect i think you have a little perhaps, i had oppened it up early on in reply to Dave's (post 2 or 3 i think) to all engineering manuals putting my kneck and private's out in full view to kick as only i can. i simply wondered why we are so protective and wanted sound reasoning as to why we with hold them back and i could then fall in line - thats was all really.

Again you seem to be confused, you dont get information on how to service/maintain a system in the user manual for an alarm indeed you dont even get it in the Engineers Manual - WHY becuase most manufacturers expect the system to be maintained by a professional Installer/engineer.

If you expect car manufacturers to tell you how to service/ maintain your car in then you are sadly deluded, all you get is basic checks/maintenance to do.

no not confussed, read in the context as you missed my thrust, if you buy a new car you get an owners manual, you don't get a workshop manual, but you will get a service record with a periods and a stamp area, and what is done in those services for the dealer to stamp.

now based on that, if i go buy a Haynes manual (so our engineers manual), i could perform those actions myself if i want to, regardless i have no experience, equipment of knowledge of how or why or even the lack of 'common sense' in doing it, but legaly its my perogative to do so or not - and then kill someone in an accident as suddenly - no brakes.

with a meter, i can test every voltage to my hearts content, and the spec is in the manual just like a car with the oil and totque pressures.

do you now see what i was getting at, infact you support my answer above to some extent, and i have now expanded it a bit more

Yes you do get the full "Engineers Manual" in the box now I wonder why its called that hmm.gif

well let me help you a little then, it defines the setting up proceedures in the engineering part of the procedure as from from the every day setting unsetting proceedures, but then some i have seeen in the past have combined manuals too - hope that helps you out a bit,

Manufacturers sell through TRADE DISTRIBUTION, why do they do that, could it be that they intend that their products are only available to the professional trade and as such all the documentation providded is for the use of the said professional trade.

some manufacturers still adopt that approach stringently, and more are not doing so by the week it seems, perhaps is the backdraught of En or DT 254 regs, making 'real' systems too expensive to have installed with 17 amp batteries professionally. they are not chritie's and although we may cringe they are there to make money, the common market makes it tough to keep prices down unless you bulk, but thats another 'chat' and i'm no international company either

No again I may be making asumptions here but as you have never indicated what standards you install to.......

i thought we was on about engineering manuals, but rather than be accused again of avoiding an issue - as if :rolleyes:

well my standards are very high and on this you will have to just trust me,you will be in good company too, with most instals alarms or otherwise by the usual routine of meet client, discuss, send estimate and specification, discuss, do job get paid. but with respect, as i do not answer to you or anyone else on this forum being very security minded i tend to keep most of my works and practic's private incidentally as legally olblidged under the Data Protection Act, but also thats a lot safer for the clients and me imo.

So in simple terms what have you sold the customer? again a question that can only be answered by reading the estimate/quotation.

not ever seen an estimate or quote actually protect any bulding - this a new technology then? if so give me a web link please. as it happens an alarm will never ever stop an intrussion, only deter it, or hopefully make that visit shorter than it would have been witout one, a fine point but we cn not condone mantraps.

Only a fool would sell a profesionally installed system with a engineers manual included.

maybe, and at last we allude to the real thread, so why do YOU say that? is all i'm asking is you support that statement - just asking not doing mind games or arfurs strong arm methods you so fearful of.

i might be going out on a limb a bit here, but for a manufacturer to have accredidation, there kit has to conform to all relevant standards, if we agree on that, i think those standards include the supply of an engineers manual, so that become part and parcel of the control panel as it's included data (can't think of the proper term - ah got it - intellecual rites) not claiming this as a fact i can proove but i think i'm correct.

But again we are digressing as we are talking about DIY/Grade 1 panels, my original point is still very valid and one that you failed to recognise, "So if the public vote that we should support all the panels that are diy or grade 1, so say someone fits a galaxy g3-144 with an ungraded bellbox and pirs, then does this become a diy panel because the install isn't graded- how do you draw the line."

a clever point well put and and a real big 'ups' to you, but imo its not relevant within this thread - the availability of manuals, i had already 'thrown open' the discussion to cover any engineer manual (meaning commonly supplied in the box not bespoke systems).

I also agree with Rogers point, Dave has on a number of occasions indicated what he would like to do, but one reason or another has not made a firm descision, I suspect that he knows what way the site should go, but is conceous of spoiling a good thing if it doesn't work. But ultimately its his descision, not ours as we can choose to anwere topics or not.

and i am in full agreement with you in the above

I still feel that this topic should be trade only as they are the ones who would be answering or correcting posts made.

again you make a fair point, imo also think it could have been better served in trade, then having gathered opinions, placed in public area's or not.

Alan once again you have hijacked a post with your own strong opinion and seeked to enforce this upon people regardless of whether it is right or wrong, please shut up for once and allow other people to post without fear of you disecting there post.

i don't mean to hijack post's honestly, and i don't strong arm or enforce 'arfurs' way on anyone intentionally. i will always question an opinion if i do not agree with or understand it - why would anyone air an opinion if not to discuss it? i tend to show why i feel that way on occassions, is that such a bad thing then?

so me shutting up is not a likely option, the best way to do that is with sound argument, best you avoid exageration or angst and forget the snide quipe's people, i don't get impressed by it but i might come after you if you do.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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So Alan how do you show that a system has been designed correctly?

How do you prove a system has been installed correctly?

hi alarmgard,

now excuse my obvious ignorance and stupidity, but wtf has this got to do with allowing engineer manuals to be sent out in the wild from this site - please exspalian as i'm finally admitting to being confussed :cry: ?

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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