Rob Kirk Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Thought regs said competency was for your own place not anywhere else? Please quote the regs exactly...found this on a spark forum: Hi Thank you for your replies. andyc, I realise it is a long answer, would you say in a nutshell that it is illegall for your average security Engineer to fit a 230 volt fused spur to an existing electrical system ? From what I have read a " competent person " means having experience of electrical installations , have sufficient test equipment, etc.. Thank you clive sorts Hello clive... welcome to the forum Guiness Drink just been reading through the thread.. and I don't think any actually directly answered this question, so just to clarify. NO it is NOT illegal for a non qualified person to add a fused spur onto an electrical circuit. BS7671 wiring regs is guidance for good practise NOT a statutory document. Part P building regulation is a statutory document.. but that applies to work in Kitchens, bathrooms, gardens, new circuits, new fuse box & similar. Your "average" alarm system on fused spur, connected to an existing circuit, in the cupboard under the stairs can quite legally be wired up by anyone! even the Spanish exchange student, who is baby sitting the children!!! But as Deke said ... You as an employer would have statutory obligation under H&S @ work, thus you cannot insist you staff install a fused spur unless they are suitably qualified & trained. This would most likely be someone of sufficient knowledge to correctly complete a "minor works" electrical certificate in accordance with BS7671, and have a suitably calibrated test meter to verify the work is safe. Another option you may want to consider is giving the customer a standard letter, advising them to organise the installation of a fused spur within 300mm of where the Alarm is due to be installed. Recommend they use an approved contractor such as a member of:- NICEIC, ELECSA, ECA, BSI etc.. & if they do-not provide a spur give a standard value to cover the cost,, (e.g. So i take that to mean you have to be able to issue a minor works certificate which is basically part p??????? Still very unclear but it looks like to be on the safe side you would at least need part p. Edited February 4, 2016 by Rob Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simlec Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 Part P is just a document (part of the building regs), there is no qualification or training for it. (its free for you to view and download from web as well the other parts you & I have to follow) Anyone who is deemed competent to install the spur for the alarm system can. To be competent would be someone who has a good understanding of whats required. Follow BS7671, some level of electrical training and the correct test equipment to carry out the testing needed to fill out the necessary form(s) and prove the work is safe. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/ just click on part p or part Q depending on what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Kirk Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 (edited) Part P is just a document (part of the building regs), there is no qualification or training for it. (its free for you to view and download from web as well the other parts you & I have to follow) Anyone who is deemed competent to install the spur for the alarm system can. To be competent would be someone who has a good understanding of whats required. Follow BS7671, some level of electrical training and the correct test equipment to carry out the testing needed to fill out the necessary form(s) and prove the work is safe. http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/ just click on part p or part Q depending on what you are doing. Thanks simlec!! Would one have to be a registered competent person with elecsa if you do not want to get the work checked by someone else? I have completed my electrical principles when i did my alarm apprenticeship and have fitted many many spurs just wondered if that would deem me competent without being registered by money grabbing eleccsa Edited February 5, 2016 by Rob Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Do you test and certify after fitting? Quote Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Kirk Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Do you test and certify after fitting? Measure the Zs at the socket you're going to spur off, R1 + R2 for the new spur cable, IR new cable, connect up, Zs at end (compare reading to socket + new cable) and do i need to fill out one of these? https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Niceic/BKIMM6_Specimen.pdf Seems there is no clear guide for the average installer on weather or not its ok to fit one and how to test certify etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Kirk Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Sorry to keep hounding on about this but just want to know where the average joe who has fitted fuse spurs stands. on reading this it seems that you do not have to test the circuit and do not have to notify building control.....just simply make sure you are using the correct rated appliance for the circuit (which with alarm equipment is always going to be ok unless spurring off a cooker circuit which no-one would do anyway.) And it not being in a special area. Oh and obviously you follow iee 7671 and use the correct rated cable. The last bullet point and also number 6 refer to fuse spurs. Q5: What types of electrical work are 'non-notifiable'? The following types of work are non-notifiable: Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact (1) Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (2) Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (3) Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (4) Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation (5) and consists of:- adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit (6)- adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit (6) Notes: (1) On condition that the replacement cable has the same current-carrying capacity, follows the same route and does not serve more than one sub-circuit through a distribution board; (2) If the circuit's protective measures are unaffected; (3) If the circuit's protective measures and current-carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected by increased thermal insulation; (4) Such work shall comply with other applicable legislation, such as the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations; (5) Special locations and installations are listed below; (6) Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory. Edited February 6, 2016 by Rob Kirk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simlec Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Testing is essential and not to be mistaken for notifiable works. Rob do you have a copy or access to the latest BS7671 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simlec Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) 134.2 Initial verification 134.2.1 During erection and on completion of an installation or an addition or alteration to an installation, and before it is put into service, appropriate inspection and testing shall be carried out by skilled persons competent to verify that the requirements of this Standard have been met. (BS7671) Appropriate certification shall be issued in accordance with Sections 631 and 632. Edited February 6, 2016 by Simlec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 You need to do a minor works cert Quote securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 (edited) Testing is essential and not to be mistaken for notifiable works. Rob do you have a copy or access to the latest BS7671 ? I'll second that! You need to do a minor works cert And that, again, not to be confused with notifying. The following types of work are non-notifiable: Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact (1) Re-fixing or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components (2) Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations (3) Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding (4) Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve a special installation (5) and consists of:- adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit (6) - adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit (6) Not sure where you are getting this from but it's outdated. Due to gov. lobbying, from April 2015 kitchen fitters have had kitchens REMOVED from Part P so they can go back to the same old piss-poor chuck it in behind the chipboard bodges they used to do... Edited February 6, 2016 by datadiffusion Quote So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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