Crussell87 Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Hi this is my first post so sorry if i have put it in wrong place or has been covered before, but i have spent ages looking and cannot find the whole answer. I was wondering if anyone would be able to push me in the right direction. I have installed a Scantronic 9651 in my parents home and would like to know what tests I need to carry out on the wiring etc and how I should I do this and also what values would I need to be looking for. I would like to thank you in advance for any help provided. Many Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Assuming it's either the 9651PD, as you didn't add PD, or the 'latest' version of the 9651, it can now read cable resistances via the menu. It'll be in the manual if so... So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 as you have installed, seemingly a bit late to ask . ideally you would test your wiring before final connection to the controls for any shorts between cores, any insulation problems to 'earth' and once detectors are powered (because you won't get a 'loop' otherwise), you have the correct resistances assuming you know how to use you meter (and i've known many really good alarm engineers who don't) keeping fingers clear of bare cables Depends what detectors your using, some have a current limiting resistor in line with the alarm terminals to protect the relay contacts and pcb, details will usually be in their instructions. Cable length is also a factor, rough guide is allow about 1ohm per 10 meters, anything excessively more than that after adding any resistor needs to be looked at. pay attention to possible shorts at terminal blocks, best avoided by having no bare cable showing, connections should tight without damaging the terminal block screws, you are not holding a road wheel on , having tightened the screw alaways give the core a tug and a push to ensure it us properly held. where you have 12 vilt power cables to detectors, you will twist these together in order to get into one terminal block, it is not a rule but insist on twisting the two colours used as a power pair, not all the reds together and then all the blacks together. it makes for easier for checking each core us held properly, and tracing out a short occur if you have issues later, just my advice. when it comes to twisting bare cables, remove about 1cm if sleeving, now butt up evenly all the sleeving's, then twist the strands tight. cut off excess leaving about 4mm to insert into terminal testing a cable -: using as example black as you common, attach you black meter lead to it, with the other end having all cores twisted together now test each cable in turn on ohms, you should get similar readings, finally test between red and another core to get same reading just in case the black is faulty. Keeping your safety uppermost, on highest ohms range test between cable and a good safe earth. which should show infinity. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 as you have installed, seemingly a bit late to ask . Agreed Arf, I did start to say all that but then gave up tbh! I still haven't played with my GT600, do they do read resistances via the keypad? I seem to recall even the 816 did and that was 10 years ago...? So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 tbh i don't think so, you getnpsu diagnostics but not zone. i know for sure but you can from gardtecs REMOTE UDL sw, so very useful to make sure your mate has put the links in the rightn places on the detecters that have the resistors selection built in . If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 OK. Actually, wasn't it only the 840 that used to be able to read from the keypad? Must have been cos I remember having to remove every single wire back in the day! (Most of the systems were domestic or small commercial 816s, a few 840s on larger stuff.) So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 only used few 840's and then due to allowing more iD interfaces to replace Ultimates, so again tbh never knew it could. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crussell87 Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Hi thank you for your time and replies yes I understand that I should have tested during installation, I will in future. Yes the panel can read the resistance for each zone, I'm not sure which version it is though. The control panel shows the software version as V5.00.11 if that helps. The setup I have is Scantronic 9651 control panel 1 x 9943 & 1 x 9441 keypads 2 x Pyronix KX15DQ 4 x Pyronix KX10DP 1 x CQR SC570 Multi G3, 1 x Pyronix Deltabell E Internal Speaker What I want to know is how do check for induced ac current, total load for battery,check the battery and to check that the zones are working correctly Thank you again for your time and advice Chris Sorry forgot to add I have used EOL wirring to the zones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 If using eol using the panel to read is pointless. You need to short the cable at one end and read the other end with your meter. Good cable is approx 10 ohms per 100m the lease induced ac set your meter to ac volts and read between 12v + and mains earth securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amps Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 If using eol using the panel to read is pointless. You need to short the cable at one end and read the other end with your meter. Good cable is approx 10 ohms per 100m the lease induced ac set your meter to ac volts and read between 12v + and mains earth I disagree. EOL readings may show a dodgy tamper connection if the reading is not stable. The majority of engineers take their cable readings from spare cores which is a complete waste of time imo. Even if using the voltage or input pairs to take a reading has anyone actually ever discovered a short? It can take an age on a big install to take the resistance readings and to gain nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew.brough Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I disagree. EOL readings may show a dodgy tamper connection if the reading is not stable. The majority of engineers take their cable readings from spare cores which is a complete waste of time imo. Even if using the voltage or input pairs to take a reading has anyone actually ever discovered a short? It can take an age on a big install to take the resistance readings and to gain nothing. Not a raving fan of taking tons of readings that no one uses myself. www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 You could have a 400 ohm fault if metering with the eol in place. Imo and Imo the regs state the reading should be of the cable only securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amps Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 You could have a 400 ohm fault if metering with the eol in place. Imo and Imo the regs state the reading should be of the cable only If you had a 400 ohm fault you would have a fault showing on the system with BS8243 panels and the circuit would not work. Also a 400 ohm fault would show with EOL readings. Regs are regs and the readings must be done but they are a bit outdated imo. Not a raving fan of taking tons of readings that no one uses myself. You leave the readings onsite or left back in the office? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Depends on the eol value, 1k is more sensitive than say 4k7 securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew.brough Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 If you had a 400 ohm fault you would have a fault showing on the system with BS8243 panels and the circuit would not work. Also a 400 ohm fault would show with EOL readings. Regs are regs and the readings must be done but they are a bit outdated imo. You leave the readings onsite or left back in the office? Cloud so eng on site could see them as well as the office. www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 You could have a 400 ohm fault if metering with the eol in place. Imo and Imo the regs state the reading should be of the cable only But if a 6 monthly remote visit is acceptable, how does that work? So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Do you have to meter all cables on a visit service? securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I usually do, and always have, but my biggest system is 32 zones atm... Remembering that I'm not currently approved, and have never worked for an approved co, my interpretation currently is that on installation, every resistance would be logged... (Table A1 "Log resistance of detection interconnections or check continuity of bus wired interconnections") and subsequently.... Annex B (normative) Preventative maintenance checks B.1 General As a minimum, preventative maintenance should be in accordance with B.2 (Site visit) or B.3 (Remote system checks). B.2 Site visit On-site preventative maintenance checks (inspection and test) should include the following: a) that the installed system meets the as-fitted document; b) tamper detection; c) setting and unsetting; d) entry and exit procedures; e) power supplies, including any APS; f) functioning of detectors and HDs; g) environmental conditions for adverse effects; h) operation of WDs; i) operation of ATS (all paths); j) visual inspection for potential problems (electrical and physical). Care should be taken to ensure the equipment is properly reinstated after testing. B.3 Remote system checks Remote system checks should include the following: a) interrogate event record and take appropriate corrective action (this might require a site visit); b) where applicable, check the system has been set and unset (may be taken from event record); c) check no adverse tamper or fault conditions exist on the system; d) check any alarm circuits that are on soak test; e) check any alarm circuits that are inhibited/isolated; f) ensure time and date of clock are correct, update if required; g) check PPS is available; h) check health of any APS; i) check that “frequently used” detectors are operating; j) check correct operation of ATS (all paths). At the risk of ridicule, I'd happily attach one of my anonymised service sheets from a customer, if I could. This is TBH exactly why I wanted to shadow someone for a few days. I am more than capable of doing the job and reading all the documents under the sun, but in the real world.... So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 My point was its not checked on a real service so 'trouble' event monitoring is an enhancement securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 So my point, which I never intended to make, is that perhaps I am doing too much at every service...! So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Possibly securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadiffusion Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Just realised, can we chop and move to trade, sorry? I would like to carry on and (if someone will show me how) upload a typical report and see what people think... So, I've decided to take my work back underground.... to stop it falling into the wrong hands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Id just start a new thread in trade. If you click on more reply options it will allow you to upload certain file types ie jpg etc securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 the basis of checking each cable go's back to single and double pole days. tbh most would take readings and compare to original site readings, if they altered then they would (should) investigate. you have to figure it was miles of lace wiring often under hardboard, tube and batten frames, foil and door contacts often all on the same zone, any dampness would show and if severe enough short the two poles resulting in a lower voltage and risk of false alarms, earths could result in a zone being bypassed. to that end you had a max limit of 22 ohms per pole and 2 meg minimum resistance. you can see a slight increase in resistance of a few ohms could be really troublesome. among the first tests is meter between 12 volts and earth on DC to look for insulation issues, most panels had chassis and negative rail down to earth, so you had to pull the earth before testing negative to earth. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew.brough Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Before my time arf www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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