james.wilson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Joe Im already getting it demanded from insurance co's, so i dont think it will be long till its widespread. I also think that RA's are not done correctly by many alarm co's dont even bother to read the insurance requirements. ie this was from a recent quote that was won. We quoted so did ADT and a local SSAIB firm Us and ADT were similar except we had slightly more detection and were dearer, plus we were using an IP webway and ADT were using Redcare GSM SSAIB Installer quoted Please note this Document is for Quotation purposes only – an SSAIB Approved Document will be provided when required. This will assist you in evaluating the quantity of Detection and Locations.Intruder Alarm System Movement Detectors Dual Technology Movement Detectors to be installed in the following areas: Unit 5 – Ground Floor Commercial Meeting Room x 2 Main Entrance x 2 Reception x 2 Small Meeting Room x 2 Toilet Lobby Area x 2 Unit 4 – Ground Floor Main Entrance Lobby Area x 2 Staff Room x 2 Server Room x 2 Toilet Lobby Area x 2 Door Contacts Main Entrance Door to Units 4 & 5 x 2 Rear Fire Exit Door to Units 4 & 5 x 3 To Assist in Preventing False Alarms Main Entrance Door to Unit 4 to be fitted with a Mortice Lock connected to the Alarm System, to indicate and prevent the Alarm System from being turned on if unlocked. (The Keyhole is to be installed internally only.) Local Internal Alarm Only 1 x Alarm Contact for the Green Emergency Break Glass installed to the Toilet side of the Server Room. Control Equipment and Sounders 1 x Galaxy Control Unit 1 x Keypad 1 x DualCom Grade 2 1 x External Sounder 2 x Internal Sounder 1 x 1AMP Power Supply 1 x Decoy Sounder Email from someone at Allianz (different job) Hi Gill, In order to put this one to bed, our surveyor has stated that we require confirmation of the following: Is the fault reporting time for loss of the IP path alone within 3 minutes? Has the signalling product been tested and approved under LPS1277? Sorry but the IP path reporting time is unclear from the alarm specification. I look forward to receiving your confirmation with regards to the above as soon as possible. Kind Regards securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 look at this attachment That document only says fault reported in x mins. Not that it would report both paths as failed and thus a confirmed alarm. If it only (as i suspect) sent a primary path failure then upto 24hours later a secondary. You wouldnt get a police response or a confirmed alarm for upto 24 hours. Its not clear IMO but as the EN standard allows upto 24 hours for this second signal to be reported id say its not 3 mins. If it was it would have to poll both paths at least every 3 mins to know. And i know a dualcom does not do that when both paths are up. You wouldnt be able to use the line for anything else as it would be dialling every 3 mins on the PSTN. If it doesnt then the reciever cant know that both paths are down if they go down together. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 IP is the way forward I think Hey Ho, Lets Go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 If it was it would have to poll both paths at least every 3 mins to know. And i know a dualcom does not do that when both paths are up. According to this document - http://www.csldual.com/products/resources/DualCom%20GradeShift®%20Range%20Elements%20CSL016V4.pdf it does.. An interesteing topic James - one which is making me think a lot! I may have to make some serious changes to the way we specify signalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alterEGO Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 IMO its 99% down to insurers (more the brokers tbh), we spoke about this about a year or so back I think James. Only this week I have specified 2 grade 4 Dualcoms, one broker said it is not specified in the insurers requirements but I agree it makes sense. The second broker said 'Any Dual path' by email, so customer just wants G2. I asked for a copy of the insurers requirements for each customer, never got them. What is so hard about insurers all asking for GRADE 4 DUAL PATH! We are not here to educate the insurance industry on a standard that has been in place for years, they need to get a grip. Would you blame a joiner for fitting a 3 lever lock and not a five if thats what the customer asked for? We can only advise, its down to the client and insurer to insist in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHappy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I asked for a copy of the insurers requirements for each customer, never got them. Strangley I rarely get to see the insurers requirements but I do ask all the time.... Mr Veritas God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 According to this document - http://www.csldual.c...%20CSL016V4.pdf it does.. An interesteing topic James - one which is making me think a lot! I may have to make some serious changes to the way we specify signalling. It doesnt say that it will confirm. It says it report a fault if both paths fail at the same time. Im assuming it will report the primary path within 3 mins but not report that both have gone at that time and as such it would be classed as an unconfirmed line fail. What is so hard about insurers all asking for GRADE 4 DUAL PATH! agreed, but even grade 4 can (under en50136) take upto 24 hours to report both paths failing if they go down together. We can only advise, its down to the client and insurer to insist in the end. Again agreed, but id say most are unaware of the 24 hour reporting time for both paths and would be at risk of further action if it did happen. Especially in the example above as the client has requested enhanced signalling and been offered G2. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alterEGO Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 It depends if the client can prove they requested this. If the alarm company have a signed acceptance stating G2 and to check with the insurer before accepting i don't think many solicitors would be interested in the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Maybe. But they have the defence 'I employed an expert and this was not clearly explained to me' Im not taking the risk myself that is why i have added the above to all our specs. Fortunatly i have very few (less than 10) grade 2 dualpath units in. They are all domestics from memory securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alterEGO Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 we have a few but I have also upgraded a couple without telling the client and upped the next bill with a take it or leave it option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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