Ip Alarm Signalling

[Guest Oxo]

I catch Carp when fishing, and bream.

Sod using the carbon fibre pole, one lightening strike i`m a gonner. ( For sale 8 mtr match margin pole £100).

Or did I think i`m on the wrong site just then, and i`ve given away the way to cut into redcare`s encryption to Anglers Mail?

Slides off to Egypt to catch Nile PErch the fookers get to over 110LBS our record here is 6½

[james.wilson]

if we are focus on the router i do agree that the power is an issue. But then once we get wide spread use of fttc and fttp this issue will still remain.

I think dual path does mitigate this but i cant help but agree that it should have some form of backup power. But i dont see how this is practical even if it is advised

[Guest Oxo]

There has to ba a UPS in the equation, its not if, its when.

The insurance companies are going to suss this soon.

James as we discussed, the log times for failure are poor to say the least.

If the ARC is going to ignore a PF, LF for hours WHAT do we need to do to cover this?

UPS in signaling devices for a start.

A immediate power fail to be sent.

We also have to assume this will be for G3 and G4 only.

G2 could stay the same or up it to G3 as it stands now, still poor tough.

What else?

GPRS and GSM ?

Thats 3 paths, one has to work. G4 is worth the cost I assume?

Short of manned guarding, and thats not worth a toss anyway what else can we offer?

Humble engineer, who does learn, watch and at times make manufacturers jump.

And I have.

Awaits a reply from some on the committiees.............

[james.wilson]

lets assume the router fails. Then the moment this fails the ats will send this over its secondary path. Just the same as if the line was cut. However i dont disagree that there should be some backup but then the enhanced polling that ip signalling gives does mitigate this to some extent.

[Matt-B]

What firewall chnages are required? i thought it didnt need any as long as it can get out onto the web?

for normal resi type customers or small businesses (the type of people that use a BT home hub type set up) just a case of plug it in and go. Where you have IP signalling to large organisations such as Banks, government, etc.. they have very complex firewall(s) arrangement and will need the ports programming in to let them out and back in again routed back to the correct device and location on the network.

[Guest Oxo]

for normal resi type customers or small businesses (the type of people that use a BT home hub type set up) just a case of plug it in and go. Where you have IP signalling to large organisations such as Banks, government, etc.. they have very complex firewall(s) arrangement and will need the ports programming in to let them out and back in again routed back to the correct device and location on the network.

Then you set it up with their IT bloke, test test and test.

Once you prove your system worked they sigh it off.

Sorted.

Had one job G3-520 had to send to ARC AND IT bod, where ever he was. Proved the ARC.

Tested when he was in France. Germany. Holland . Iceland. New York.

All worked.

He went on holiday Glapagos Islands, got a phone call, SAT phone. A member of staff had been sacked was not allowed into previous offices.

Used laptop with sat phone locked the person out of all systems.

Moral, get your kit working, prove it works.........................rest is down to end user.

[jimcarter]

sorry Jim, i'm not intending to be rude in any way

as a trade we can't be so 'cavelier' to rely on the ARC to say there is a loss of signal, since securty time in memorial - well almost, we have had to ensure the transmitter be that a '999', digi, ABC, red care works properly in a power cut, and as long as the signal path is there it will transmit.

you are incorrect about power outages being rare, Cuffley, Herts had 22 hour cut 20/12/2010, Wickford (where i live) had several last year lasting upto 8 hours.

if the power to the router is cut yes the ARC will know it has lost signal, but that will be a line fault scenario and so key holder only. Mr Smart Ass intruder klls the power and can now break in knowing only key holder response to a lost signal.

if the panel holds up but batteries start to get exausted, how will it send a low battery alert, the keyholder mught assume a simple power cut.

i appreciate there will most likely, but not always (if IP really want's to compete), be a secondary backup TX system via Red Care or other channel, but 'we' need proper response on the primary signal transmittions for our confidence.

Red Care has had GSM attached why? because Red Care is simply so unreliable, the GSM side can't always be used simply because of lack of GSM network coverage. Dual Com has simular issues because GSM signal strengnth can be so erratic.

while the risk might be 'OK' for G2, but i would not like to be the one to confront a heavy loss client for the sakes of a backup power UPS connected to the router.

please don't take any of the above as any sort of 'crack' at you, i'm just voicing my honest concerns.

Arfur

None taken...I guess I should say that I'm always talking about Dual Path systems, I'm not a fan of single path at all.

Reason being, in our case, there are so many diagnostics you can carry out when one of the paths has failed to find out what has gone wrong, and how to fix it. Of course, if there has been a long power cut and there is a low battery alarm then this should get out over the back-up before the remainder of the kit goes fut. It's a little difficult when you aren't really familliar with what my company does on a day to day basis and I want to try and keep neutral, but maybe you are beginnig to get an idea that support is key to all this, and having the tools available.

All the arguements regarding UPS to the Router, unplugging cables etc have really been done to death. If you've spent as long as we have in the signalling business(and we used to build hardware for RedCARE), you have to look at all the scenarios from the client, the installer to the ARC when developing an ATS. I understand your concerns, but maybe, just maybe there's someone out there that is providing the service everyone is after.

[Matt-B]

Then you set it up with their IT bloke, test test and test.

Once you prove your system worked they sigh it off.

Sorted.

Had one job G3-520 had to send to ARC AND IT bod, where ever he was. Proved the ARC.

Tested when he was in France. Germany. Holland . Iceland. New York.

All worked.

He went on holiday Glapagos Islands, got a phone call, SAT phone. A member of staff had been sacked was not allowed into previous offices.

Used laptop with sat phone locked the person out of all systems.

Moral, get your kit working, prove it works.........................rest is down to end user.

agreed.

[arfur mo]

As security engineers not communications experts, although we each develope a degree of it in various measures, we by nature look at and basically fear vulnerabilities, imho we have to as it's our house's that depend on spotting them before we get sued silly.

Internet based attack by dpotty geek in bedroom has to be a worry, you can shout security clamp down but just look at the guy who busted the Yank cimputers looking for evidence held of alien life, i' fairly good at locking down but not against a hacker in that league.

where as other methods the provider Is immune to this problem, or it's not our problem.

Fio me, I'm no luddit, i love technology and why I enjoy what I do, maybe it's a feeling of to many other people/companies beyond my control can interfere, by accident or deliberately.

No single signal path is immune, or we would all be useing it, so a new path has to offer more than the others to be accepted to be a viable 'sister' path,

yes you can get more info/diagnostics over IP, but I'd balance that with the cost of training engineers and equipping them with test kit, or having a dedicated tech team.

I will watch this space with great interest .

Regards

Arthur

[james.wilson]

re the hack arf. As there are no ports forwarded there is no exposure to attack without first compromising the router etc or having local access. But while its a possibility you have to compare it to the current way. First of all any device that uses GPRS is an IP device already. This has an exposure already. Plus the bt side.

But if someone is that skilled in defeating a security system then there are far easier ways of doing it. But due to the risk assessment you must consider the skill lever of the expected intruder. How many Grade 4 systems do you do arf?

On a serious note this does highlight an issue and the more i look at this from a 'how it works' point of view i feel there is a need for us (ie our company) to only use grade 4 comms, even on grade 2 systems, with a select few very low risk at g2 / g3 depending on path/panel vulnerbilities.

Now i still need to be competitive even if we are using g4 and others are using g2. I think i have found a tech that can do this with some minor changes, that offers g4 signalling at g2/g3 costs. I have to explore it.