james.wilson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 im afraid i agree with ag fast alarms i can see your trying to do a little marketing here, but your not going to convince a bunch of professional installers that the way they do it is wrong. c'mon mate your fitting systems designed for the casual diy'er and recommending dummy boxes with flashing led's. got real locks on your car or dummy ones? you got a dummy at home, a diy system, or a proper one? some of us do have a rough idea what we are on about mate if you see what i mean. btw these euro cylinders you dont like, why dont you fit dummy versions of them, after all the burglar will then be scared away wont he..... securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastalarms Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 I am all ears alarmaguard. How can a system without external sirens be the best possible option? What if there is a problem with the phone lines or the phone line is cut and there is no gsm or dualcom? What if the arc is down. What if even though the arc has responded and notified the police they don't have any manpower available because its Saturday night and they are busy in town. Having working sirens adds belts to braces. In fact most systems I fit now I offer the owners a siren front and rear and with a control panel internal sounder and they prefer that set up as well as the autodialler. I am not knocking monitoring stations just not having external bells. Why spend say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RJBsec Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 btw these euro cylinders you dont like, why dont you fit dummy versions of them, after all the burglar will then be scared away wont he..... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 fast couple of points As for bells only being no detterent that depends exactly on the neighbours.If you have good neighbours then a bells only will work if you have no relationship with neighbours then a bells only will simply be ignored or reported as a nuisance. from your own posts. If the risk is high of a phone line attadk then a dual path com would be recommended. the external bell thing is a point of failure some customers dont want, they also really dont want to bother any neighbours. Your own post above about perbs being quicker etc could be handled by the internal bell. while i can see the merits both ways i feel we will see more and more systems without external sounders, especially once the councils really persue offinding alarms and issuing fines. I also see a do in the not to distant future where we wont be able to use ladders anymore for the sort of heights we have to fit bells so how would we service etc. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastalarms Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 im afraid i agree with agfast alarms i can see your trying to do a little marketing here, but your not going to convince a bunch of professional installers that the way they do it is wrong. c'mon mate your fitting systems designed for the casual diy'er and recommending dummy boxes with flashing led's. got real locks on your car or dummy ones? you got a dummy at home, a diy system, or a proper one? some of us do have a rough idea what we are on about mate if you see what i mean. btw these euro cylinders you dont like, why dont you fit dummy versions of them, after all the burglar will then be scared away wont he..... I guess we are dealing with different spectrums of consumer here. A person renting a house where the landlord wont spend money on an alarm may be happy to fit a dummy box. The police even suggest fitting a dummy box as does the home office website on home security. I am not dismissing your trade. Obviously the locks I would be replacing are real and feature hardened anti drill faces , 6 pin anti bump mechnisms and a sacrificial snap off end to prevent access. Considering in the last week I have been to three houses where they have been entered by defeating the eurocylinder then the replacement options I offer are far superior and far from being dummy items. I have mentioned before the demographic I am currently fitting alarms to and they would not be fitting NACOSS alarms in a month of Sundays. If a national alarm company fitted working sirens to its systems I wouldn't cynically suggest that the dummy ones are there to prevent people cancelling monitoring contracts. I had a request from someone wanting an alarm fitted as he wanted to cancel his monitoring contract and have an autodialler. Maybe he had been banned from his URN for having three false alarms or maybe he wanted to save the monthly fee... whatever the reason he had realised that what he was left with without monitoring didn't do anything hence looking for another install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 ok fast but one mor epoint before i go. you talk about these c##p euro cylinders and replace them with decent professional type cylinders AFTER they have been defeated. then in a post or 2 talk about fitting a bottom end alarm and say its better than nowt... im sure they guy that fitted the original euro cylinder thought the same as well. James securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RJBsec Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Interestingly BBC this evening (The One Show) had an ex-burglar giving the usual crime prevention advice, his comments were, 'Get an alarm but make sure it's a good one, don't put up a dummy box, every burglar knows what a dummy box looks like they see them in all the stores.' Check it on iPlayer fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest old-hand Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I guess we are dealing with different spectrums of consumer here.Obviously the locks I would be replacing are real and feature hardened anti drill faces , 6 pin anti bump mechnisms and a sacrificial snap off end to prevent access. Considering in the last week I have been to three houses where they have been entered by defeating the eurocylinder then the replacement options I offer are far superior and far from being dummy items. I`ll pass the other items and concentrate on the above. Anti drill faces...............fine i`ll tell you how to bypass them shall I. Anti bump, close but no cigar I have tools that still defeat them in a similar time. If used correctly. Snap off ends, lol. Do more damage than good. Plus give easier access to other opening methods. Think of the ways to defeat all of the above you mention then add another 10. Now UI wonder where that video they took of me training the police firearms squad on fast entry methods with no noise and no damage......... Only an experienced Locksmith and Electronic enginneer`s thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alterEGO Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I guess we are dealing with different spectrums of consumer here.A person renting a house where the landlord wont spend money on an alarm may be happy to fit a dummy box. The police even suggest fitting a dummy box as does the home office website on home security. I am not dismissing your trade. Obviously the locks I would be replacing are real and feature hardened anti drill faces , 6 pin anti bump mechnisms and a sacrificial snap off end to prevent access. Considering in the last week I have been to three houses where they have been entered by defeating the eurocylinder then the replacement options I offer are far superior and far from being dummy items. I have mentioned before the demographic I am currently fitting alarms to and they would not be fitting NACOSS alarms in a month of Sundays. If a national alarm company fitted working sirens to its systems I wouldn't cynically suggest that the dummy ones are there to prevent people cancelling monitoring contracts. I had a request from someone wanting an alarm fitted as he wanted to cancel his monitoring contract and have an autodialler. Maybe he had been banned from his URN for having three false alarms or maybe he wanted to save the monthly fee... whatever the reason he had realised that what he was left with without monitoring didn't do anything hence looking for another install. Out of interest what is the averidge system spec, and cost you install? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastalarms Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 fast couple of pointsfrom your own posts. If the risk is high of a phone line attadk then a dual path com would be recommended. the external bell thing is a point of failure some customers dont want, they also really dont want to bother any neighbours. Your own post above about perbs being quicker etc could be handled by the internal bell. while i can see the merits both ways i feel we will see more and more systems without external sounders, especially once the councils really persue offinding alarms and issuing fines. I also see a do in the not to distant future where we wont be able to use ladders anymore for the sort of heights we have to fit bells so how would we service etc. If the alarms are programmed correctly then they won't be getting any 2k fines from the council unless the alarm has been installed to go for more than 20 minutes. Fortunately I only fit bells sub 10 metres as the batteries have to be changed so there is no point sticking them right up to the eaves. No wire needing protection from cutting and level with the top of the upstairs windows is usually high enough to be out of harms way and if positioned correctly reachable for a battery change without a ladder. The sounders are a difficult one. If the norm becomes silent alarms then the practice will soon be for criminals to cut the phone line first and then wait to see if there is a response. No response and they will know its party time. I am definately a fan of external sounders. After 100 installs now I am more than confident that systems can be set up not to give false alarms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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