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magpye

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Arfur.

How the hell can you possibly try and defend this practice?

It's a Potentially dangerous practice as well you know, then you try and claim others are wrong, post ridiculous non sequitors as if this makes you right.

We have all read your qualifications on Electrical Installation, Inspection and Testing...and now your lack of knowledge on Part P.

Sorry, but you are wrong, plain wrong.

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depends - it tells you the curcuits dead (or your drivers broken), it tells you the curcuits live (or your drivers broken), it tells you the curuits dead and your dead ( because your drivers broken)

you play russian roulette, I`m worth more than a 99p bit of plastic

hi Angus,

tbh that applies to any test kit used, i and also seen others trust even expensive meters having tested the input terminals in the panel, then believing its 'dead' got a packet when working on the mains cables. some shocks have been down to intermittent leads, others to faulty selector switches or incorrect selection of range, in this respect where more recent meters don't show ac if set to dc the problem is more likely to happen by mistake.

it's my view and what i was taught (which eventually - i even learn t :rolleyes: ), is any test kit should be tested against a known condition for proper operation before considered as accurate or reliable, even then it's use is approached with caution especially where high/lethal voltages are present. the 1st basic meter test evbery time it comes out of the box is to check the leads condition, and continuity on low ohms scale before anything else. much the same as using a neon, i.e. check its physical condition then test it on a known live source before trusting it - simple as.

the structure off the neon screwdriver (for those who don't know) is very simple, the the neon itself is a small glass tube with 2 electrodes in it which are not in contact with each other at any point, the tube is filed with an inert gas, when you pass a small current through the case at about 70 volts or more, and it glows very simple science.

there is no direct physical connection between the blade and touched area on the screwdriver, for safety there is high value ressistor in series which serves to prevent shock should the neon tube ever be damaged and short out by defect or being dropped.

personally, yes i always use a meter as the 1st device, but i also always test with a neon to make sure, as i have been caught out seeral times with a disconnected neutral, even a perfect 'billy bee's' meter will never beat a neon for reliably indicating such a common danger.

get your 'researcher' to do this simple google like "dangers of neon screwdrivers", if they were that dangerous there would be simply millions of hits, like you get with asbestos or lead in paint, all i could find to put on the 'minus sheet' was some guy back in 1955 worried about his appendage being damaged if he happened to have held the screwdriver while testing mains, and his 'old chap' was in contact with a metal object, the current and voltage passed through it could cause severe damage in his opinion (bet he just loves nylon carpets then :lol:) - hmm! now just how you would come to be working on the mains with your flies open beats me (oficer :P ) but it takes all kinds.

your known imagination leads me to let you make your own jokes - and draw the pictures.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Arfur.

How the hell can you possibly try and defend this practice?

It's a Potentially dangerous practice as well you know, then you try and claim others are wrong, post ridiculous non sequitors as if this makes you right.

We have all read your qualifications on Electrical Installation, Inspection and Testing...and now your lack of knowledge on Part P.

Sorry, but you are wrong, plain wrong.

hi cubit,

i'm honestly not just putting up some 'fun' pedantic argument, i truly happen to totally disagree with you that using a neon screwdriver is in anyway a more dangerous practice or offers any extra real peril.

i'm arguing far less peril is offered than the incorrectly using more sophisticated kit, for the the diy'er especially, a pro will (should?) have been properly trained.

for anyone to accept any practice a dangerous and so be deterred from using it, surely it is best to explain why, not just make a blanket claim it is so?

example, take using a trolley jack on a car and climbing underneath, the very real (but not to obvious) danger to the uninitiated is the jack can suddenly fail or slip and the car crushes you (and i have dug 3 people out my self to date so far, one fatality, one who lost fingers), so lift car with a jack and secure on axle stands and remove the weight off the jack before you get underneath it - i.e. don't rely on the jack alone and the reason why.

nothing like that explanation has been posted, just several rampant and righteous but ths far unsupported condemnations, one reference to and electricians inspectors view but not why he holds it, which serves what purpose guys?

this is a serious request, no banter no insinuation or disrespect intended. if in i'm that wrong and i don't beleive i am then for my, and everyone else's improved safety reading this thread please 'burn me down' with why it is so, it should be that easy surely?

your opinion is one i and many can respect based on your qualifications alone, my opinion is one which is based on using neon screwdrivers since i was 5 years old without any mishaps so far (might possibly explain my mental state though :unsure: ).

also see reply to Angus.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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makes a change - you missing the point entirely

i admit i totally missed the point - or would have had i noticed it :P

we all bang on a lot about safety in here, yet nobody wants to tell me why or how using a neon screwdriver sold by the trillions is dangerous or any more dangerous to test mains is present with.

so help me out guys I HONESTLY REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY

and i'm not joking or playing the 'old fool' either.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Guest anguscanplay
i admit i totally missed the point - or would have had i noticed it :P

we all bang on a lot about safety in here, yet nobody wants to tell me why or how using a neon screwdriver sold by the trillions is dangerous or any more dangerous to test mains is present with.

so help me out guys I HONESTLY REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY

and i'm not joking or playing the 'old fool' either.

regs

alan

tell me arf. using a test meter - how do you test a curcuit is dead ( and therefore safe to work on)?

your answer should explain why a neon is deadly

regards

A.

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tell me arf. using a test meter - how do you test a curcuit is dead ( and therefore safe to work on)?

your answer should explain why a neon is deadly

regards

A.

why talk on riddle's.

wether or not my tests you would agree with is simply not relevant, simply serves to deflect.

angus your someone, usually at the forefront of warning people, and especially 'victimising' the diy sector about safety, part p and the compliance's of, i thought you would be the one most likely to post an unarguable response, and is all i have asked for.

like all of us i hope, i concider safety is a very serious issue and do i care an awful lot about, i really don't want anyone getting hurt due to my ignorance if it exists, about neon screwdriver dangers end of.

anyone reading this thread who may not want to enter into open argument, and i mean just anyone, please pm me why the neon screwdriver is so frowned on. all i ask is for a scientificly based reason not fear or conjecture. i will not mention on pain of death any names, and if needed i will alter the content (imput muown spelling mistakes ;) ) to disguise who advised me if i post any retraction/s based on it - and i will post a retraction of my views, no if's, no but's, no excuses if i'm proven wrong.

so this has got to wet the pallet - anyone want see the 'fearsome' pedantic bad Arfur Mo eat a massive lump of humble pie in public (might even do it at ifsec) and brought to his knee's then? so get typing because i ain't got all year.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Will a Mod please close this rubbish, 120+ posts that have nothing to do with the original question - that has not been answered.

magpye - O/P

Someone told me I was ignorant and apathetic, I don't know what that means, nor do I care.

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120+ posts that have nothing to do with the original question - that has not been answered.

:hmm:

A DIYer installing in his/her own property for their own use does not have to install to or follow EN/PD6662.

Neither would they need to installing for anyone else unless claiming to do so perhaps for payment.

Even 'professional' installers don't have to install to EN/PD as long as they don't claim to - plenty of ungraded equipment available at distributors, sheds etc for them to use.

Panel can even be plugged into a socket to avoid issues with electrical connection.

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Will a Mod please close this rubbish, 120+ posts that have nothing to do with the original question - that has not been answered.

magpye - O/P

You've not exactly contributed to the very discussion you started.

Why did you ask?

Windup merchant IMO.

;)

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Will a Mod please close this rubbish, 120+ posts that have nothing to do with the original question - that has not been answered.

magpye - O/P

hi magpie

the original question imo was covered, well best we could, it has moved on to cover it more extensively.

if or not a diy system is affected by any regulations is obviously not a cut and dried question, like a pack of cards other issues will be leaned up against it to derive an answer. so if you decided on one or several 'cards' are not required, the 'pack' for the purpose of discussion falls apart, an as such has little or no chance of any accuracy.

this is a diy section, so many diy assumed less informed members (god help them) will have a read and decide for themselves, so best to discus fully all aspects to assist them, as if we don't, then surely we have let them down

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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Guest anguscanplay
Will a Mod please close this rubbish, 120+ posts that have nothing to do with the original question - that has not been answered.magpye - O/P

it has mate - the fact that yet AGAIN you dont like the answer is your problem, nobody elses

(and forget what TA was saying - he doesnt even know what day of the week it is IMO)

why talk on riddle's.

not a riddle at all (get off your high horse for once) you should test

phase to neutral

phase to earth

neutral to earth

now tell me how you do that with your NEON?

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(and forget what TA was saying - he doesnt even know what day of the week it is IMO)

Coming from someone who thinks that a B&Q plug-in alarm system requires the DIYer to comply with PD6662 I find that laughable, though completely predictable - wasn't it you who said it was against the law to have a strobe light flashing for longer than 20 minutes. :roflmao:

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Guest anguscanplay
Coming from someone who thinks that a B&Q plug-in alarm system requires the DIYer to comply with PD6662 I find that laughable, though completely predictable - wasn't it you who said it was against the law to have a strobe light flashing for longer than 20 minutes.

listen pal - if you wanna go head to head I`m more than ready BUT get your facts straight before you kick off.

so far in this thread alone you`ve wrongly claimed

a hard wired system doesnt need to comply with wiring regs (the clue is in the title)

anyone can fit anything anyway they like for any amount of money as long as they dont say there fitting it

enviromental pollution laws are voluntary

Part P can just be ignored

and there just the few I could be bothered to read, mentioning no names your just another of the DIY`ers playing at been an alarm engineer - you don`t know the regs, you dont know the law and you dont seem to have any advice to offer other than what you manage to gleam by hastily searching the site, leave the yellow smillies of it out the jokes on you

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hi cubit,

i'm honestly not just putting up some 'fun' pedantic argument, i truly happen to totally disagree with you that using a neon screwdriver is in anyway a more dangerous practice or offers any extra real peril.

i'm arguing far less peril is offered than the incorrectly using more sophisticated kit, for the the diy'er especially, a pro will (should?) have been properly trained.

for anyone to accept any practice a dangerous and so be deterred from using it, surely it is best to explain why, not just make a blanket claim it is so?

example, take using a trolley jack on a car and climbing underneath, the very real (but not to obvious) danger to the uninitiated is the jack can suddenly fail or slip and the car crushes you (and i have dug 3 people out my self to date so far, one fatality, one who lost fingers), so lift car with a jack and secure on axle stands and remove the weight off the jack before you get underneath it - i.e. don't rely on the jack alone and the reason why.

Ok arfur, assuming you are not the one true altruist in the trade sector; not that this absolves anyone from thei leagal responsibilities

you do carry out a risk assessment before using test equipment i take it? - and more pertinently, take this seriously??, if so, the potential risk being?

Your magical failsafe neon is compliant with BS61010-1 ??

You follow the recommendations laid out in GS38 ??

When you sat the practical for C&G 2391 - and passed - you used your magical neon as the approved test equipment? And it provided confirmed, verifiable indication that the system under test was safe?

Electricity at work Act?

etc etc

As much as you do try and avoid the issue, it is for you to prove your equipment is 'fit for purpose', not for others to prove why it isn't.

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listen pal - if you wanna go head to head I`m more than ready BUT get your facts straight before you kick off.

so far in this thread alone you`ve wrongly claimed

a hard wired system doesnt need to comply with wiring regs (the clue is in the title)

anyone can fit anything anyway they like for any amount of money as long as they dont say there fitting it

enviromental pollution laws are voluntary

Part P can just be ignored

and there just the few I could be bothered to read, mentioning no names your just another of the DIY`ers playing at been an alarm engineer - you don`t know the regs, you dont know the law and you dont seem to have any advice to offer other than what you manage to gleam by hastily searching the site, leave the yellow smillies of it out the jokes on you

As usual you have totally missed the point of the question, misinterpreted what was said and sidetracked, this time to Part P and other professional qualifications, procedures and requirements.

Take your claims on a DIYer fitting the B&Q plugin alarm to trading standards, county court or anywhere else you like - you'll be laughed out of the building. It is not a requirement for a DIYer to fit it to EN/BS/PD alarm regulations and that has nothing to do with electrical wiring regs, other than plugging it into a socket its not even necessary to make an electrical connection!

Alarm regs exist to provide a standard for professionally installed systems which can be inspected and are provided as a means of safeguarding all parties including the customer and the insurer. DIYers can comply with them if they choose and good for them if they do, but they simply don't have to and you seem unable to understand the difference.

By the way why not write to the local councils and get them to prosecute all those millions of professionally installed systems with naughty flashing strobes causing environmental pollution for more than 20 minutes.

Oh and werent you going to put me on ignore, or couldnt you find the button?

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Guest anguscanplay
Oh and werent you going to put me on ignore, or couldnt you find the button?

no mate - your so ill informed it needs someone to counter balance your incorrect advise, but the forums always been full of chancers trying to be "billy big talk....." your nothing new, have no substance and not really listened too

get your facts right (not just what YOU think things are ) and start fresh would be my advice - looking at your companys training manual might be a good first step

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Ok arfur, assuming you are not the one true altruist in the trade sector; not that this absolves anyone from thei leagal responsibilities

you do carry out a risk assessment before using test equipment i take it? - and more pertinently, take this seriously??, if so, the potential risk being?

Your magical failsafe neon is compliant with BS61010-1 ??

You follow the recommendations laid out in GS38 ??

When you sat the practical for C&G 2391 - and passed - you used your magical neon as the approved test equipment? And it provided confirmed, verifiable indication that the system under test was safe?

Electricity at work Act?

etc etc

As much as you do try and avoid the issue, it is for you to prove your equipment is 'fit for purpose', not for others to prove why it isn't.

hi Cubit,

i am not trying to avoid any issue's, i think first it better you know my actual background a bit more. i never did any city & guilds type exam, i am not an ex sparks so i don't claim any specialist knowledge in that field, only what i have picked up along the way.

i was taught my alarm trade by several ex sparks, after 18 months i sat a written/practacle exam and made it to what was then called "Grade 2" as an alarm engineer. which was as high as Chubb ever gave anybody at the time, unless your into a brown nosing, but nobody was ever awarded it.

G2 meant you were proficient to install systems to a good standard unsupervised. you had to know all the panels past and present, and every single component, value and what it did because you were expected to repair down to pcb level - even a 3am without even circuit drawings - bless!

explaining the above shows (i hope) i am extremely serious in this 'quest', this is not any clever words wriggle, we are in the DIY/Public section and i'm concerned about everyones safety as well as my own not to make a joke out of it. you and others have claimed or represented the use of a neon screwdriver as being an extremely dangerous practice, but as yet nothing shows me why, so i don't share your opinion as much as i respect your views.

asking what i do is not informing jo public why you stated it is so dangerous to use a neion screwdriver or in anyway support's the vehemence used in berating me for suggesting it. i have to say here i was a bit appalled and was close to sending back a fer nukes of my own, but this is not the place.

i encourage anyone especially if not trained to get in a trained and competent person (take another look at my footer) as the top advice, but if someone is going to insist on ignoring that advice and opening a panel, it's my honest opinion that it is surely safer to advise after switching off the spur/unplugging, to make sure it's power is off before inserting their fingers with gay abandonment. using a simple to understand and operate neon screwdriver as a secondary safety test just baffles me what is so very wrong with that advice that i think is so prudent?

shouting out indignantly "it is very dangerous practice", and "i should know better" without ever explaining why, surely only serves to place a j/p in much greater peril than can easily be reduced by deterring them from a cautioned sensible practice.

lets compare rationally, i think i can safely say most homes will have a neon screwdriver, ok yours don't but are you sure one is not kicking around in the tool box (or knife drawer :rolleyes: ) , most can understand how to use it even if they seem never to come with the instructions.

'against' this simple device, most homes will not have any type of meter, if they do only a small percentage of those users would actually know how to use one properly and safely, and then what condition will it and it's leads be in - do you care to comment on this?

on a cheap meter it is very easy to blow a range or ranges if inadvertently if set to amps and connected across a battery or mains. depending on design a fuse will pop or the meters the board/components get damaged. the user is not proficient in most cases and can't see this damage, so is not aware or ignores/forgets it. later they use the same meter on the mains with a damaged board, and the subsequent false results could be fatal so no argument there would you not agree?

use a neon to double check is less likely to be fatal would you also not agree?

personally, i always check physical condition by 1st looking and test anything connected to the mains for my own safety (let alone anyone else's) before and after i work on it (dammed if the ruling half is going to get the insurance ;) ). i'm not saying the neon screwdriver is the perfect or 'messiah' magic tool for a pro to use, i tend to use one to help confirm the zero meter readings and/or hot finger can be trusted, and to guard against those 'blond moments' we all have from time to time when we are distracted or tired.

trust me, exercising such caution when out in the field has paid dividends many many times, even when told a circuit was 'off' by experienced electricians and has happened on several occasions when it was'nt (assassination attempts by rjbsec perhaps :cold2: ), to the point i insist anyone who works with/for me, has to double check either with preferably a hot finger against meter, or neon against hot finger but when not available a neon screwdriver is the minimum test, it would take a major act of convincing argument to get me to do or think otherwise.

i honestly thought you would relate to the possibility of the insulation breaking down, the neon exploding and blinding the user, the user being isolated from earth having stood on a car mat having read thats what electricians have to do (so not completing the circuit), or using it in a bright light where the glow could not be seen.

all the above are a possibility, it's the probability against the danger of not using it that has to be considered as any tool is dangerous if not used within its design limits, but on balance i think the simple neon screwdriver comes out pretty good to improve safety overall, darn site better than nothing at all.

the above is my honest opinion, i've not tried to conciously avoid any relevant points or talk (filly bust) out any arguments. if i'm wrong then please rip me apart with facts, sensible example's or actual experience's as to know is the base plank of facts to lead to understanding.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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it has mate - the fact that yet AGAIN you dont like the answer is your problem, nobody elses

(and forget what TA was saying - he doesnt even know what day of the week it is IMO)

not a riddle at all (get off your high horse for once) you should test

phase to neutral

phase to earth

neutral to earth

now tell me how you do that with your NEON?

thanks angus, saved me typing it :P , i also test from panel earth connection and case to a nearby consumer box case or water/gas pipe, but hey i'm just a cautious old fart :rolleyes:

i'm curious, where am i appearing to be on a high horse? i'm not dictating to anyone or screaming your wrong, i don't agree with those who say its dangerous and so i'm asking for an explanation why anyone so strongly considerer's a neon screwdriver is a dangerous practice, see my reply to cubit as i don't want to write it all again.

agreed, a neon screwdriver will not test across phases, but then would a diy'er do so in any case? personally i don't think so

what a neon will do is indicate a voltage higher than 90 vac present on a single core even if both nuetral and earth became disconnected, but what is the likelihood of a non combatant ever making such a test? more likely if they did of getting a shock using a meter surely? but we are both then scratching around possibilities not the probabilities, as such a situation would be i hope fairly rare.

now lets throw in flat meter battery (never happens on a neon screwdriver :no: ),

throw in broken meter leads (never happens on a neon screwdriver :no: )

throw in chaffed leads (never happens on a neon screwdriver :no: )

throw in intermittent leads ...........

well if i'm on partly right on the above, i ask if using and trusting any meter is not far more dangerous than using and trusting neon screwdriver?

what has been argued so far imo and with all the greatest respect to the authors, only offers examples of if a neon is incorrectly used or used outside of it's remit, but hey that applies to meters, roller skates and parrelel bars too.

on balance it's still my view there is a much higher probability of incorrect or even worse a misunderstood use of a meter presenting a true danger, than ever posed by using a neon screwdriver in conjunction with any 'belt & brace's' safety test.

i'd bet most hobbyist's or lets say non-engineers who own a meter got it as a present, have opened the box, inserted the battery whiuch has by now gone flat and got bored by the unintelligible 'enqrush' instructions, so tried it out on a light bulb then across a plug top, with a good chance of being on the wrong range and blowing it up if not killing themselves there and then.

so now it's been chucked in a drawer, along with the socket set and club hammer, the leads have been used for shoe laces on little johny's soccer boots

the above is very typical of real life, so people lets work within it - because we can't change it no matter how well intentioned.

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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here's an experiment for everyone, and i can't influence it in any way

if you spot a sparky, just ask politely if you can borrow his/her neon screwdriver for a moment please - odds on 8 out of 10 will and not bat an eyelid, while one will not admit to owning one (because he borrows anyone elses's) and the last guy will be to tight fisted to lend it in the 1st place :P

go on - have a go ;)

regs

alan

If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!!

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no mate - your so ill informed it needs someone to counter balance your incorrect advise, but the forums always been full of chancers trying to be "billy big talk....." your nothing new, have no substance and not really listened too

get your facts right (not just what YOU think things are ) and start fresh would be my advice - looking at your companys training manual might be a good first step

:roflmao: you actually believe what you write don't you.

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I think its time to draw a line under this topic

:closed::sucks:

The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct!

(Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not)

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