19 replies to this topic

[jameswilson]

Went to a WW1 training event / seminar yesterday. As you may know we have started using these (in IP mode where possible) as our preferred high risk signalling device. Still using red secure at grade 3 for the low risk stuff. We dont use Grade 2 anything apart from digis.
But the below came up. As you know 8243 calls for the below text to be added. However we have added that with some additional notes as below.



BS8243 2010-11
If an ATS provider is offering Grade 2 or 3 signalling solutions, self certified or otherwise to Grade 2 and 3 you need to consider attributing warnings to your specifications.

An LPS1277 approved dual path solution would not need a warning because it delivers notification of catastrophic failure in minutes, however we recommend that warnings should also apply to Grade 2 and 3 dual path systems to avoid the repercussions of delayed notification of catastrophic faults/attacks:

In BS8243 2010-1 the following warning is given with regard to single path signalling systems:

Quote

Any Grade of single path signalling
“Your attention is drawn to the fact that failure or compromise of single path signalling cannot be passed to the police. While the failure persists, subsequent alarms cannot be notified to the alarm receiving centre and passed to the police.”

We have added the below note.

Quote

Grade 2 Dual Path
“Your attention is drawn to the fact that failure or compromise of the dual path signalling may not be passed to the Police for up to 24 hours. While the failure persists, subsequent alarms cannot be notified to the alarm receiving centre and passed to the police.”

Grade 3 Dual Path
“Your attention is drawn to the fact that failure or compromise of the dual path signalling may not be passed to the Police for up to 5 hours. While the failure persists, subsequent alarms cannot be notified to the alarm receiving centre and passed to the police.”

We have also started adding the ATS level to the first page ie LPS1277 4plus or 5, depending on pstn or IP mode

[steveo44]

Quote

Grade 2 Dual Path
“Your attention is drawn to the fact that failure or compromise of the dual path signalling may not be passed to the Police for up to 24 hours. While the failure persists, subsequent alarms cannot be notified to the alarm receiving centre and passed to the police.”

Grade 3 Dual Path
“Your attention is drawn to the fact that failure or compromise of the dual path signalling may not be passed to the Police for up to 5 hours. While the failure persists, subsequent alarms cannot be notified to the alarm receiving centre and passed to the police.”

So if both paths failed it could take 24 hours for this to be reported? Why is this please?

[breff]

look at this attachment

Attached Files

•  DualCom GradeShift® Range Specifications LR.pdf   161.89K   36 downloads

Edited by breff, 05 March 2012 - 10:28 PM.

[jimcarter]

Within EN, the reporting time for Grade 2 Systems is 24 hours, so if you can disable the communications, you may not know for up to 24 hours. Not good.

Grade 3 has a reporting time of 5 hours in single path systems. Still not very good.

Dual path Grade 3 has a reporting time of 5 hours on the primary and 24 hours on the secondary. Thats back to 24 hour reporting time if you can disable the communications. Nope, that's not good either.

Even at Grade 4, dual path, the secondary reporting time is 5 hours. Not sure if that's much good for high risk?

Understanding the reporting times and being able to explain the risks involved is valuable information during the specification of a system and advising a client.

The key in the attachment from the last post is the simultaneous failure notification time. 24 hours on Grade 2, 1 hour in Grade 3 (better than the standard but still a long time) and 3 minutes at Grade 4. So, if you were picking a signalling solution for your valuables, how quickly would you like to know the system is in failure?

[Adi]

All the agro and cash spent on these regs, and they still end up with a pile of ...., unbelievable.

[jimcarter]

What you have to remember ADi is that the EN standards are a mixture of views from all countries. They have to accommodate all the interests of all parties involved and that's why they take so long to become a released standard. So, they tend to be the minimum requirement. Then, each country overlays their own requirements and certifications. Hence in the UK we end up with LPS1277 for signalling which enhances the EN standard to what the UK industry needs, from an Insurance perspective.

In other countries there are similar "additional" requirements that have to be tested and certificated to. I'm not going to name them here, but I can if your interested!

Signalling is a very complex topic, and whilst EN is "ok", it's a long way from being perfect as mentioned above. Signalling has been dumbed down too long but there are a lot of people waking up to the fact that there are a lot of systems sold cheap, that don't operate in the way they may have expected.

[MrHappy]

jimcarter, on 06 March 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Signalling is a very complex topic

TBH I was lost on

jameswilson, on 02 March 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Went to a WW1 training event

I assumed it where something to do with machine gunning the Hun

[Adi]

jimcarter, on 06 March 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

What you have to remember ADi is that the EN standards are a mixture of views from all countries. They have to accommodate all the interests of all parties involved and that's why they take so long to become a released standard. So, they tend to be the minimum requirement. Then, each country overlays their own requirements and certifications. Hence in the UK we end up with LPS1277 for signalling which enhances the EN standard to what the UK industry needs, from an Insurance perspective.

In other countries there are similar "additional" requirements that have to be tested and certificated to. I'm not going to name them here, but I can if your interested!

Signalling is a very complex topic, and whilst EN is "ok", it's a long way from being perfect as mentioned above. Signalling has been dumbed down too long but there are a lot of people waking up to the fact that there are a lot of systems sold cheap, that don't operate in the way they may have expected.

I appreciate afew countries are involved, but, how in ant country can a report time of upto 24hrs be good for any system/user/insurance firm.

Surely its common sense writing these regs, or atleast it should be, wht cant they start off agree-ing how the regs should work instead of bodging it as they go along.

[jameswilson]

The issue is IMO is that a 24 hour reporting time is ok for low risk systems or low budget systems
The problem arises when specifiers and/or installers dont know this 24 hour time is there and think all dual path systems are the same.
They are not.
I dont quote G2 signalling but a lot... no a hell of a lot do. Because its cheap. There is a reason that its cheap mind. If the industry hadnt moved in this direction (ie mainly G2) then the insurance world may not have demanded LPS1277. As it is they see loads of different signalling devices. How do they know which are any good etc. ie Dualcom and all its versions, Redcare and its versions, Emizon, WW1, Chiron, that risco unit etc etc etc. They cant just say we want redcare anymore. So this allows them to spec something that is independantly verified and certified.
has anyone ever tested these units in failure before deciding on one? Or do many think well im 'insured' and it may never happen so ill go with the cheap one?

Quote

I assumed it where something to do with machine gunning the Hun

lol

[TheTechGuy]

Quote

...then the insurance world may not have demanded LPS1277

Except they aren't yet demanding it.

It is a sad reality that G2 systems are popular due to costs, however the RA should dictate appropriate application and you notice the same industry stalwarts not balking at the vast number of digis with single 24hour test signals (or none at all).

It is a point to consider and best practise is always encouraged. Of course all documentation and information fed back to the end users should be clear, consise and explain the pros and cons of each type of system.

We need to ensure that we don't mix up actual legislation with alternative and currently unsupported legislation.

'J

[jameswilson]

Joe
Im already getting it demanded from insurance co's, so i dont think it will be long till its widespread.
I also think that RA's are not done correctly by many alarm co's dont even bother to read the insurance requirements.
ie this was from a recent quote that was won.

We quoted so did ADT and a local SSAIB firm
Us and ADT were similar except we had slightly more detection and were dearer, plus we were using an IP webway and ADT were using Redcare GSM
SSAIB Installer quoted

Quote

Please note this Document is for Quotation purposes only – an SSAIB Approved Document will be provided when required. This will assist you in evaluating the quantity of Detection and Locations.

Intruder Alarm System

Movement Detectors

Dual Technology Movement Detectors to be installed in the following areas:
Unit 5 – Ground Floor
Commercial Meeting Room x 2
Main Entrance x 2
Reception x 2
Small Meeting Room x 2
Toilet Lobby Area x 2
Unit 4 – Ground Floor
Main Entrance Lobby Area x 2
Staff Room x 2
Server Room x 2
Toilet Lobby Area x 2

Door Contacts
Main Entrance Door to Units 4 & 5 x 2
Rear Fire Exit Door to Units 4 & 5 x 3

To Assist in Preventing False Alarms
Main Entrance Door to Unit 4 to be fitted with a Mortice Lock connected to the Alarm System, to indicate and prevent the Alarm System from being turned on if unlocked. (The Keyhole is to be installed internally only.)

Local Internal Alarm Only
1 x Alarm Contact for the Green Emergency Break Glass installed to the Toilet side of the Server Room.

Control Equipment and Sounders
1 x Galaxy Control Unit
1 x Keypad
1 x DualCom Grade 2
1 x External Sounder
2 x Internal Sounder
1 x 1AMP Power Supply
1 x Decoy Sounder

Email from someone at Allianz (different job)

Quote

Hi Gill,

In order to put this one to bed, our surveyor has stated that we require confirmation of the following:

• Is the fault reporting time for loss of the IP path alone within 3 minutes?
  
• Has the signalling product been tested and approved under LPS1277?

Sorry but the IP path reporting time is unclear from the alarm specification.

I look forward to receiving your confirmation with regards to the above as soon as possible.

Kind Regards

[jameswilson]

breff, on 05 March 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

look at this attachment

That document only says fault reported in x mins.
Not that it would report both paths as failed and thus a confirmed alarm. If it only (as i suspect) sent a primary path failure then upto 24hours later a secondary. You wouldnt get a police response or a confirmed alarm for upto 24 hours.
Its not clear IMO but as the EN standard allows upto 24 hours for this second signal to be reported id say its not 3 mins. If it was it would have to poll both paths at least every 3 mins to know. And i know a dualcom does not do that when both paths are up. You wouldnt be able to use the line for anything else as it would be dialling every 3 mins on the PSTN. If it doesnt then the reciever cant know that both paths are down if they go down together.

[reidy]

IP is the way forward I think

[RFS]

jameswilson, on 07 March 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

If it was it would have to poll both paths at least every 3 mins to know. And i know a dualcom does not do that when both paths are up.

According to this document - http://www.csldual.c...ts CSL016V4.pdf it does..

An interesteing topic James - one which is making me think a lot! I may have to make some serious changes to the way we specify signalling.

[alterEGO]

IMO its 99% down to insurers (more the brokers tbh), we spoke about this about a year or so back I think James.
Only this week I have specified 2 grade 4 Dualcoms, one broker said it is not specified in the insurers requirements but I agree it makes sense. The second broker said 'Any Dual path' by email, so customer just wants G2. I asked for a copy of the insurers requirements for each customer, never got them.

What is so hard about insurers all asking for GRADE 4 DUAL PATH!

We are not here to educate the insurance industry on a standard that has been in place for years, they need to get a grip. Would you blame a joiner for fitting a 3 lever lock and not a five if thats what the customer asked for?

We can only advise, its down to the client and insurer to insist in the end.

[MrHappy]

alterEGO, on 08 March 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I asked for a copy of the insurers requirements for each customer, never got them.

Strangley I rarely get to see the insurers requirements but I do ask all the time....

[jameswilson]

RFS, on 08 March 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

According to this document - http://www.csldual.c...%20CSL016V4.pdf it does..

An interesteing topic James - one which is making me think a lot! I may have to make some serious changes to the way we specify signalling.

It doesnt say that it will confirm. It says it report a fault if both paths fail at the same time. Im assuming it will report the primary path within 3 mins but not report that both have gone at that time and as such it would be classed as an unconfirmed line fail.

Quote

What is so hard about insurers all asking for GRADE 4 DUAL PATH!

agreed, but even grade 4 can (under en50136) take upto 24 hours to report both paths failing if they go down together.

Quote

We can only advise, its down to the client and insurer to insist in the end.

Again agreed, but id say most are unaware of the 24 hour reporting time for both paths and would be at risk of further action if it did happen. Especially in the example above as the client has requested enhanced signalling and been offered G2.

[alterEGO]

It depends if the client can prove they requested this. If the alarm company have a signed acceptance stating G2 and to check with the insurer before accepting i don't think many solicitors would be interested in the case.

[jameswilson]

Maybe. But they have the defence 'I employed an expert and this was not clearly explained to me'

Im not taking the risk myself that is why i have added the above to all our specs. Fortunatly i have very few (less than 10) grade 2 dualpath units in. They are all domestics from memory

[alterEGO]

we have a few but I have also upgraded a couple without telling the client and upped the next bill with a take it or leave it option.