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But if they are going to do the job anyway, with or without help, is it not best if they can get some advice?

Being a spark, I install fire alarms fairly regularly. The get passed onto a a company for maintenance. I had a simple question, that was answered. If I didn't receive an answer, I would have stayed on the side of caution anyway.

If you want to take this sort of stance with the forum, then surely the whole forum shouldn't exist in the public eye?

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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Dont take it so personel!! this is a discussion forem everyone has an opinion about something,you say if you didn't receive the answer you needed you would not have done the job but what if you had taken the first two answers as correct and due to the job being urgent got stuck in and did not use FP cable??? next week theres a fire which burns through your link wire and someone dies from suffocation because of it!!!! if a similar thing happens with cctv it is unlikely although i realise not impossible to be the direct cause of a fatality as with intruder should this opinion be rejected out of hand or be seriously considered???

Please give opinions guys(calmly).

My mates just come in and we've had a chat about this and two things have surfaced :

a. do you intend to shut the fan down or start it?

b. if you do a lot of fire why don't you know about FP on auxilary equipment

If you carry out the work are you "qualified" to do so if you are not qualified do you carry out the work under qualified supervision or do you rely on the company issuing the certification to point out any of your work which must be changed because it does not comply I'm not saying there is anything wrong regardless of your answers but it does create an interesting discussion point don't you think?and thats supposed to be one of the reasons for this forem Paul. :yes:

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Fans shut down, they are intake and extract.

I always wire to a spec, and always in mineral or fire-tuff.

All systems are certified, and used to be inspected by the local Fire Authority, although they now no longer inspect.

In hind sight, it was a fairly stupid question, although a fairly relative one, as many others gave conflicting advice it obviously leads to say people are unsure.

The main reason I asked was that the Intruder Alarm at the same premises is connected to the Fire Alarm panel with standard 6 core alarm cable - this raised my question.

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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The thing is though if the 6 core gets set on fire the intruder alarm doesnt signal through to the ARC, it still doesnt stop the fire alarm from activating or sounding so nobody dies everyone lives happily everafter.

The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct!

(Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not)

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Nice one! now that you have explained that it comes over much better but i hope you under stand my concern over advice being given out on fire by people who are obviously not fire people its no reflection on the individual because thats the way the security industry has always been but hopefully it is being forced to change which will make it better for qualified people such as yourself and me and remove people from the system who really are working under false pretences at the moment.

Over the next couple of years regulation of the industry will increase and that will benifit all of us who are qualified,those of us who are prepared to put in the effort to become qualified and of course those who can prove that thru their experience in the industry they are competant even if they have no formal qualifications .

What we dont need is so called governing inspectorate bodies taking the opportunity to fleece us out of hard earned dosh when they should be organising affordable training for all within the industry(BSIA how about creating a training school within the industry to train people up at cost!that means non profit making!!) you could help create an industry that we could all be proud of and be more part of or am i into a fantasy world again????.

One last thing any link between alarm and fire panel would never be wired in 8core by myself!!! any thoughts by others???? Paul :yes:

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is it not standard practice to wire all things controlled by a fire alarm relay to be normally closed.

If the panel failed or any cables were cut/burned, the redcare/maglocks/fans/vents/gas, etc would still operate as they would in alarm.

If you don't know......ask.

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Yes but same arguement applies to auxilary equipment

40842[/snapback]

Idont quite agree with that if you are saying that the aux wiring could be 8core- if cable to relay designed to close down ventilation duct and fans cannot operate a fire would be fed with oxygen and engulf people within the building as smoke kills the most people it would directly lead to loss of life even if the alarm had gone off?

Paul.

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is it not standard practice to wire all things controlled by a fire alarm relay to be normally closed.

If the panel failed or any cables were cut/burned, the redcare/maglocks/fans/vents/gas, etc would still operate as they would in alarm.

40844[/snapback]

Yep nice one but just because you have wired a relay so that if power is lost it will still trigger do you not do your best to protect that cable "as well"??? I would prefere not to assume any thing but build into the system survivability.Paul

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Brian,

Chances are all insulation would melt and all cores would short together, therefore staying closed circuit.

The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct!

(Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not)

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Brian,

Chances are all insulation would melt and all cores would short together, therefore staying closed circuit.

40879[/snapback]

I think the idea is that the relay is energised at all times and de-energised to operate the auxilary equipment therefore if the cable was burnt and the cores shorted power would be lost to the relay the relay would drop out and the relay contacts would change state operating the aux equipment!!!(right or wrong??)

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Guest Bell-man

Here here that man.

Every individual must be competant to do the job. If you don't know the standards then you're not competant.

When it comes to fire; don't give advise based on what you think you know only on what you actually DO know. Similarly, don't accept advise from anyone unless you are satisfied that they are competant in that field.

Fire alarm engineers should work on fire alarms and electricians should work on 240v wiring.

I'm sure I could rewire a house and it would all work, but I don't know the regs and a decent electrician would probably rip it apart. (I'm a fire alarm engineer)

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  • 2 months later...
Here here that man.

Every individual must be competant to do the job. If you don't know the standards then you're not competant.

When it comes to fire; don't give advise based on what you think you know only on what you actually DO know. Similarly, don't accept advise from anyone unless you are satisfied that they are competant in that field.

Fire alarm engineers should work on fire alarms and electricians should work on 240v wiring.

I'm sure I could rewire a house and it would all work, but I don't know the regs and a decent electrician would probably rip it apart. (I'm a fire alarm engineer)

40972[/snapback]

you say that every individual should be competent to do the job but then you make a comment that suggests electricians are not competent to install a fire alarm system? surely an electrician who is familiar with the standards is far more competent than an engineer only familiar with fire alarms, im an electrician but im also a fire alarm engineer, but if anyones competency need questioning it is alarm engineers who assume they know what they need to do when it comes to adding fused spurs to power the systems they have installed because most of the time they have neither the technical qualifications or the knowledge of bs7671 to be able to carry this work out. (oh one more thing, i think you will find that the nominal voltage Uo of low voltage mains in the uk is 230Vac) :P

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Guest Cerberus NI

Just picked up on this topic but ALL communication cables (by that I mean the detection zones,sounder circuits,auxillary outputs and links to intuder panels) and mains supplies/power supply outputs must be wired in fire proof cable.No plastic choccie blocks either (as mentioned earlier, must be ceramic) and no P clips - must be fixed using plastic coated copper clips.Oh,and no more tie wrapping to cable trays or down conduits!!!

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Just picked up on this topic but ALL communication cables (by that I mean the detection zones,sounder circuits,auxillary outputs and links to intuder panels) and mains supplies/power supply outputs must be wired in fire proof cable.No plastic choccie blocks either (as mentioned earlier, must be ceramic) and no P clips - must be fixed using plastic coated copper clips.Oh,and no more tie wrapping to cable trays or down conduits!!!

49429[/snapback]

Good input guys, thanks for the pro opinion cerb! regards Paul [anyone know why my two applications to trade have fallen on stoney ground??] :yes:

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no P clips - must be fixed using plastic coated copper clips.Oh,and no more tie wrapping to cable trays or down conduits!!!

49429[/snapback]

P clips are copper clips that you have to screw to the service, they take there name from the fact they wrap around the cable and form what looks like the letter P

i can honestly say i have never tie wrapped fire alarm cables down conduit, only because it looks awful and temporary and if the conduit is moved or altered then you need to clip it anyway.

the other thing to note is you cant just use plastic trunking as a form of containment, if you do use it you should still put a couple of P clips inside

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Guest G.J.M
the other thing to note is you cant just use plastic trunking as a form of containment, if you do use it you should still put a couple of P clips inside

49461[/snapback]

tis true.Same applies to trunking.I use buckle clips inside trunking.

I think if you used metal sadlles with pvc conduit it may be ok.

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Guest Cerberus NI
P clips are copper clips that you have to screw to the service, they take there name from the fact they wrap around the cable and form what looks like the letter P

i can honestly say i have never tie wrapped fire alarm cables down conduit, only because it looks awful and temporary and if the conduit is moved or altered then you need to clip it anyway.

the other thing to note is you cant just use plastic trunking as a form of containment, if you do use it you should still put a couple of P clips inside

49461[/snapback]

I know thats what P clips are (say what you see,as Roy Walker says) but if I ask a sparky to use P clips he thinks I mean the nail in cable clips!Dunno why as they ae more lower case h-clips!!

I have seen on numerous occassions cables tie wrapped up and down cable tay supports where the detector is on the ceiling.

You are very defensive to anything which appears to criticise electicians and rightfully so but this thread and subsequent answers have proved that there is confusion and a lack of knowledge out there.Most obvious is where you go to site to hook in the link to an ARC and there it is - white 6 core!!!Or a detector that is a gland length from the wallA right pain but indicates the value of this site as a means of keeping people informed and up to scratch - it isn't (and shouldn't be) an opportunity bash-the-sparky or intruder engineer (or the fire engineer - heaven forbid!! :roflmao: ).

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the reason why im defensive of comments regarding electricians is because a lot of people on here seem to always come to the conclusion that electricians cant install fire alarm systems but intruder engineers can, the truth is that its a specialist subject and should only be attempted by people with the relevent skills and knowledge which many electricians and intruder engineers do not have

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the reason why im defensive of comments regarding electricians is because a lot of people on here seem to always come to the conclusion that electricians cant install fire alarm systems but intruder engineers can, the truth is that its a specialist subject and should only be attempted by people with the relevent skills and knowledge which many electricians and intruder engineers do not have

49515[/snapback]

In my experience with site work it is more usuall to see a qualified electrician include in his porfolio the task of fire alarm installation and maintenance,they have a more solid training in cable regulations and method compliance than the security trade which seems to concentrate more on equipment type installation and installing in a way to keep the NACOSS inspector happy with what he see's!!!!,before any one jumps down my throat for saying this I relise that it does not apply accross the board but as a generalisation I believe to be more correct than not ?? :yes: Paul.

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Guest G.J.M
In my experience with site work it is more usuall to see a qualified electrician include in his porfolio the task of fire alarm installation and maintenance,they have a more solid training in cable regulations and method compliance than the security trade which seems to concentrate more on equipment type installation  and installing in a way to keep the NACOSS inspector happy with what he see's!!!!,before any one jumps down my throat for saying this I relise that it does not apply accross the board but as a generalisation I believe to be more correct than not  ?? :yes: Paul.

49746[/snapback]

i don't have a problem with sparks installing fire alarms as long as they are competant.

arguments for both sides and i have seen some really botched jobs by them but i have also seen really neat installs too.

alot of fire and intruder engineers were or still are sparks.

i have seen some really shocking work as well from supposed fire engineers.

there are John Waynes in every trade.yeeehaa.

especially plumbers :w00t::roflmao:

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i don't have a problem with sparks installing fire alarms as long as they are competant.

arguments for both sides and i have seen some really botched jobs by them but i have also seen really neat installs too.

alot of fire and intruder engineers were or still are sparks.

i have seen some really shocking work as well from supposed fire engineers.

there are John Waynes in every trade.yeeehaa.

especially plumbers :w00t:  :roflmao:

49748[/snapback]

i work for a nacoss gold company,we install intruder alarms and fire alarms. i started 4 years ago, ive never been given any traning on installing either. my first ever fire alarm job was a 8 zone panel in a rest home, which i was given having never fitted a fire alarm, in fact id never even changed a smoke head.my company never informs us of british standards . it is only me reading up on regs that has enabled me to install to british standards.from my experience people think that because your headed paper has got nacoss on it you are good at all aspects of security, which is a load of rubbish. all nacoss care about is paper work. i talked to an inspector once about meter readings and he said he didnt care what was written down as long as there where a few different numbers there. the same applies when fire alarms get checked, as long as the detectors are in the right place they take no notice of anything else

Trade Intruder

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Guest G.J.M

I agree with you on NACOSS.

There is a really shocking couple of security companies in my area who's work you would have to see to believe.

These guys have been struck off a police register,install shoddy and dangerous systems and have no trained guys.

They don't have a kit to test fire alarms and yet they are NACOSS Gold :no:

I am sure that one company's MD is on the local board of NACOSS.

Funny That.

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I agree with you on NACOSS.

There is a really shocking couple of security companies in my area who's work you would have to see to believe.

These guys have been struck off a police register,install shoddy and dangerous systems and have no trained guys.

They don't have a kit to test fire alarms and yet they are NACOSS Gold :no:

I am sure that one company's MD is on the local board of NACOSS.

Funny That.

49999[/snapback]

I have already admitted NACOSS installers are better equipped for maintenance and elecs are better for install with regard to fire. In my opinion for what its worth i wouldn

Customers!

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I agree with you on NACOSS.

There is a really shocking couple of security companies in my area who's work you would have to see to believe.

These guys have been struck off a police register,install shoddy and dangerous systems and have no trained guys.

They don't have a kit to test fire alarms and yet they are NACOSS Gold :no:

I am sure that one company's MD is on the local board of NACOSS.

Funny That.

49999[/snapback]

Which company has been struck off, because I like Jeff find it hard to believe that any company has been removed from an inspectorate approved list and the fact publiscised. If your suggesting that the Police operate a list of approved installers this is also wrong, Lothian and borders dont Reccomend Installers, they suggest that you get an Installer who is approved by an Acpo Acceptable Inspectorate.

I also agree that generally that intruder alarm installers do not have a wide enough skill base to install Fire alarms and generally when they do install the installation will not comply with the standards. This falls back to the first couple of years where an electrician learns basic cable and electrical installation techniques.

Unless the inspectorate providing certification has inspectors with actual real world expierience of Fire Alarm installations, they will also not have the skills required to accurately assess the standard of installation.

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