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Lectrician

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Tried to post a question in the Fire Alarm section, but can't. Hope it's ok to here.

I have to link the firealarm in a pub to the extractor fans in the kitchen. Alarm sounds, trips the motor starter.

Easy to do using the aux relay contacts in the panel, and the panel 24v supply to power a relay. (which will open the contacts on the fan starter).

Ok, the question.....

Does the cable from the panel to the relay ( which will be in a gewiss box approx 5m away), have to be FP or similar??

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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No it doesnt have to be be in FP but obviously is good practice to run it in FP.

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cheers guys. I was thinking that if I was using the panel 24v to feed the relay, if the cable suffered fire damage, the panel fuse would blow = no sounders!

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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Does the cable from the panel to the relay ( which will be in a gewiss box approx 5m away), have to be FP or similar??

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Depends who the fire officer is, but good practice says yes.

I've linked relays from fire panels to intruder alarms before and FP has been specified even though it is just connected to a standard relay in a plastic box at the other end.

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I thought only the sounders had to be FP?

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Technically yes, but it's usually easier to wie it all in FP than try and convince the person who drew up the spec any different than they have decided.

I think in general everyone wires the complete fire alarm in FP, I always have and I'm not one for doing unneccesary work. It's just become one of those done things.

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All cabling and associated cabling MUST be in FP, not allowed to use red twin and earth anymore for call points etc.

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Yea, our NICEIC says sounders and detectors in FP or similar. I was unsure on the relay though.

On another note on the same subject....

I have run the cable, and was about to connet the aux fire changeover contacts in the panel which where empty last week.

Some bloody :w00t: security engineer :w00t: has just run an alarm cable into the panel to interface it to the intruder alarm.......using the aux fire relay :realmad:

I could use the aux fire relay to drive another double pole relay, giving 2 switching contacts, one for me, and the other for him.

OR

There is a 2mA 24v aux fire output. Would this drive a relay?? Would I need a diode for the back EMF??

OR

There is a spare sounder zone. Could I use that with a diode for back EMF and another diode to polarise the relay??

What would be the best route??

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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Id personally go for option one, put another relay in to give you double pole. However if the alarm guy has connected his intruder to the current relay, its 99% certain its NC and connected to brigade, so make 100% the system is on test with the ARC before pulling it off, or you might get an earful from a crew of firemen. The customer should be able to put the comms on test for you.

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You are right about the NC :yes: I checked this already - been there once before in my younger years :whistle:

Email : martin@askthetrades.co.uk

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BS5839:2002 makes major changes to cabling and signalling requirements. It also makes YOU as the installer more accountable for the installation and some of its requirements, unless you follow the current edition of the British Standard then you cannot rely on the information given in the posts above, ultimately you are responsible and unless you take the responsible attitude and buy a copy of the standard to ensure compliance, then how can you honestly prove that you are competant to specify, install and maintain a system.

Personally I fail to see why members of the forums continue to give advice for something that they are clearly not upto date on the standards relating to the equipment being specified and installed. Simply doing a job day in day out does not qualify you as an expert on every product or system available to the market today, this industry is a life long learning curve and buying current standards and learning them is a must for every professional installer.

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Simply doing a job day in day out does not qualify you as an expert on every product or system available to the market today, this industry is a life long learning curve
Agreed
and buying current standards and learning them is a must for every professional installer.
I agree that every installer should be made aware of the relevant standards by its employer, they arent cheap these standards and as an individual working for an employer I see it as their responsibillity to keep me informed with the up to date standards and any ammendments.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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I agree that every installer should be made aware of the relevant standards by its employer, they arent cheap these standards and as an individual working for an employer I see it as their responsibillity to keep me informed with the up to date standards and any ammendments.

I agree Dave, an employer does have a duty of care to ensure that their staff have all the current information and standards that pertain to the job that they do.

But there are many self employed engineers and smaller companies that don't bother to obtain the standards or even ensure that they install to them.

Is "ignorance" a defence that could be used if something goes wrong with the system or sorry my boss hasn't given me that information I did the best I can with the information available.

Every individual whether employed or self employed has to ensure they are current, whether that mean asking for the information from your employer or buying your own set of standards for the scope and type of work you are carrying out.

Yes the standards are expensive, but surely that is an expense that we all have to accept, if we wish to participate within this industry. There are many engineers in this country who have never installed or serviced and dont know the rules pertaining to what they do, it is simply the accepted Norm that they have done it day in day out 365 days a year, as they were shown when they first started in the industry.

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Not cheap is right £167.00 for the BS5839.

I agree ADI.

But what price do you put on a life if the system fails to operate simply because it wasn't installed correctly.

Or Can you afford to replace the property and contents because the system wasn't installed correctly and the clients insurance company wont pay out.

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But there are many self employed engineers and smaller companies that don't bother to obtain the standards or even ensure that they install to them.
Thats true, we all know that for every compliant install there must be several that arent. I admit that as an engineer I HAVE NEVER SEEN THE STANDARDS, but thats not because i havnt asked my employers to see there copies, its because they have been reluctant to lend me them. I know that the standards are updated several times each year but its always been my employers interpretation of these new ammendments that have been passed on to me.

I would like to see the standards in full, but I dont see why I should have to buy them myself as an employee, I do regard it as my employers responsibillity.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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I would like to see the standards in full, but I dont see why I should have to buy them myself as an employee, I do regard it as my employers responsibillity.

As an employee Dave you are quite correct. As I know who you work, for I would anticipate that you have been given a training/ installation procedures book which will be regularly updated, normally a company of your employers size would keep you up to date by using these books and incorporating working practices and procedures that incorporate the British standards, industry practice etc.

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As an employee Dave you are quite correct. As I know who you work, for I would anticipate that you have been given a training/ installation procedures book which will be regularly updated
You are correct, this company keeps me informed...:) and supplies regular updates by email or other means as required.

But I was basing my previous post on the last ten years working for previous employers, not the last 2 months with my current employer.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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But I was basing my previous post on the last ten years working for previous employers, not the last 2 months with my current employer.

I can see what your saying, but wouldn't you say that the Inspectorates have a duty to ensure that allthough the office has the BS, that the engineers get the information also and are kept up to date. BS50131 makes an emphasis on training and qualifications, but shouldn't the inspectorates make more of an effort on the whole "compliance "thing.

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but shouldn't the inspectorates make more of an effort on the whole "compliance "thing.
They certainly should, its a pity that every aspect of a company isnt inspected, I`d like to see the inspectorate spending a day with a randon Installer and Service Engineer from each company as well as a tightening on what currently gets inspected.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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I agree ADI.

But what price do you put on a life if the system fails to operate simply because it wasn't installed correctly.

Or Can you afford to replace the property and contents because the system wasn't installed correctly and the clients insurance company wont pay out.

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I dont put a price on a persons life. i agree with what your saying.

The regs are there for a reason and should be followed.

But as for the price of regs here is my little story.

I bought a book called fire detection and alarm systems, a guide to the bs code bs5839-1:2002 by colin todd.£30.(a great little book) but then bought my own copy of the regs because i wanted to know the full regs straight from the horses mouth so to speak, but there wasnt anything in the regs that wasnt in the little red book.

I really can't be ar**** with it anymore.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Have done this link also if you ask any Fire guy he will say its obvious why it should be in fp200 or similar: If the fire is between the fire alarm and the equipment you wish to control the cable could burn thru before the alarm relay has been tasked to carry out its job if its FP theres a better chance it will still be capable of carrying out its task.

I've had to look into fire install / design regs/methods over the past few weeks and have come to the conclusion that although there are hard and fast rules which govern this side of the security bussiness it is still open to individual interpretation,It is such a serious subject due to the consequences of getting it wrong I wonder if questions other than "where can i obtain professional advise "should be allowed to be asked in the open forem,would it be possible to stop these questions with some form of key word block? I realise it would be a form of sensorship but for the best possible reasons,keep fire questions within the fire trade forem where the guys know what their doing! Any comments?? :!:

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