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I have an Abacus panel which is linked wirelessly to a detached garage. The alarm, which is Police monitored, was activated accidently when the side door was opened. The opening of the side door was detected by the Alarm Receiving Company (ARC), however they also state that it was a confirmed alarm. The garage has a PIR inside, which should have confirmed the alarm IF someone enters the garage. In this case, only the side door was partially opened.

The ARC has stated that the side door detector and confirmed signal came through at exactly the same time, leading me to assume that the configuration is incorrect. The alarm company has stated that the configuration is correct as the partial opening of the door probably triggered the PIR.

Is this configuration correct?

Shoudn't a confirmed alarm occur when a person is detected by TWO seperate detectors, not by a PIR being triggered by an opening door? I thought that PIRs are not triggered by the opening of a door?

Shouldn't this have been detected during an alarm service, which i've had 10+?

Regards

Brum69

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Out of interest which model of Abacus is this?

Don't know a lot about them but can't think of one that has conformation facilities, I'd like to look it up.

Someone told me I was ignorant and apathetic, I don't know what that means, nor do I care.

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did the log on the panel show the other detector has triggered. It may have been bodged to get it to send confirms which means its not compliant and why you have this issue. But its also possible that whoever opened the door did actually enter the area.

Panel log will confirm or deny this.

as maypye i thought the abacus were too old to do confirm?

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Out of interest which model of Abacus is this?

Don't know a lot about them but can't think of one that has conformation facilities, I'd like to look it up.

If I remember rightly, its an Abacus 16/8 or 12/6 with a digi and wireless module.

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did the log on the panel show the other detector has triggered. It may have been bodged to get it to send confirms which means its not compliant and why you have this issue. But its also possible that whoever opened the door did actually enter the area.

Panel log will confirm or deny this.

as maypye i thought the abacus were too old to do confirm?

Good point, as I've not checked the log.

The person did NOT enter the garage at all. I've accidently done the same thing, as the door only has to be slightly opened to set the alarm off. There is a door step to negotiate too, so it not a case of just pushing a door then running in.

One thing I did notice on their documentation was that the 4 garage detectors seem to be on the same zone. However, the panel does identify the the detectors indiviually - sidedoor, garage door 1, garage door 2, garage pir or words to that effect.

The big issue I have is whether my setup complies with DD243 and BS4737 Parts 1,3&4 (from their documentation), with regards to how it signals a confirmed alarm. If only one detector is activated, this should not signal a confirmed alarm. The alarm company believe that the door has triggered the PIR, which I don't think that it should without someone entering the garage. The ARC state that the confirmed alarm was sent at exactly the same time as the door was opened, which seems like the garage detectors have been 'botched' to produce a confirmed alarm if any are open.

Thanks

Brum69

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I suspect you have a Abacus 6/14R, these where dd243 & I have them still in service,

The movement of objects changes the IR levels within the field of view of the sensor(s), it depends greatly on the circumstances of the event.

An Abacus can be wired with many zones off one cable & then the zone can be split to have 2 zone off one circuit.

However without viewing the panels log its mere speculation on what happend

Mr😀 Veritas God

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The log will tell you.

DD243 did state that a single action should not produce a confirmed alarm but its not quite a simple as that.

In effect the system thinks its a break in. And it was in a way. ie someone entered an area they shouldnt of done.

Also if the alarm was turned off, it would send an open or an abort signal to cancel the police call. Obviously there is a time limit here, but why did the person not silence the alarm immediatly. Also a trained user should call the ARC to inform of the mistake and again clear it down.

If the door opened enough to trigger the movement sensor (and i pir can see a door especially if its inward opening and a different temp to the area the pir is in) then it would send a confirm at the same time (or close). Depending on how good your communicator is will then depend if its fast enough to deliver the signals at different times. ie if you are on a digi that is slower than other more secure devices.

Its possible its wrong but without the log in its impossible to say.

Have you ever had an unconfirmed alarms in the past?

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If it is an Abacus 6/14R as suggested by Mr Happy I'm sure it does not have the Confirm Alarm option (I might be wrong though)

A piccy of the panel should help.

Someone told me I was ignorant and apathetic, I don't know what that means, nor do I care.

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  • As stated the log will tell you if the PIR activated, this is plausable.
  • I thought that DD243 stated that you should not be able to enter into an armed protected area without first starting the entry proceedure
  • The wireless detectors cannot be all on the same zone, unless there is one wireless txer and they are all wired into it. And if they were it would not be possible to cause a confirmed intruder two activations on the same zone cant confirm
  • Where did all these bullet poitns come from?
  • And how do I get rid of them?

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Just my two pence but I recall that we had an Abacus 72r panel that sent confirmed alarms when just one detector was triggered. Could be a potential software problem. brum69, as above, a check of the log will reveal wether or not a second detector had been triggered. It's also probably a good idea to get your alarm company to come out and check the system over to make sure this can't happen again.

Out of interest which model of Abacus is this?

Don't know a lot about them but can't think of one that has conformation facilities, I'd like to look it up.

Pretty much every Abacus panel I've ever worked on apart from the smaller 6/8P and the mega old 64 has a 2nd alarm or "verify" output. It's not subject to the same restrictions as the sequential confirmation we know today is, but it'll send a 2nd alarm if two or more detectors are triggered none the less.

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Just my two pence but I recall that we had an Abacus 72r panel that sent confirmed alarms when just one detector was triggered. Could be a potential software problem. brum69, as above, a check of the log will reveal wether or not a second detector had been triggered. It's also probably a good idea to get your alarm company to come out and check the system over to make sure this can't happen again.

Pretty much every Abacus panel I've ever worked on apart from the smaller 6/8P and the mega old 64 has a 2nd alarm or "verify" output. It's not subject to the same restrictions as the sequential confirmation we know today is, but it'll send a 2nd alarm if two or more detectors are triggered none the less.

If you prog intruder signal as pin 7 and tell the ARC that pin 7 is confirmed this would happen, the panel cannot send two signals for the same activation ie pin 3 progged as intruder and pin 7 progged as intruder would only send a pin 3 not both. The op states that the ARC recieved both int and conf which would suggest that two signals were sent. (The fact that they both went through at the same time would only be relevent if the signaling is not digi, but it would also depend on the ARCs reciever so we can only summise if the system is not digi.

Then were all in big trouble.

Maybe I'm thinking ahead

6.4.1 General clause about unsetting amplified.

Now specifically mentions the use of external ACE for

unsetting.

Requires that application of force to external ACE cannot

initiate change of status of IAS

6.4.2 Adjusted so that permits additional methods of ensuring

that IAS is unset before entry is possible.

6.4.3 Adjusted so that permits additional methods of ensuring

that confirmation is disabled before entry is possible.

6.4.4 Option remains, with additional notes for guidance of

installer.

6.4.5 Method unchanged. Includes concession to use of PIN

code for unsetting after expiry of entry time, and mentions

use of external ACE (with PACE only).

Includes scenario where unconfirmed alarm takes place

BEFORE start of entry time.

“Zone Omit Rearm” must now be advised to keyholder.

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Should have said that the Abacus in question sent the intruder signal aswell as a confirmed signal with a single detector, which is also what seems to be happening with the OP's system (until a read through the log proves otherwise!)

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Maybe I'm thinking ahead

Quite Peter. Although we should all remember how loose the DD243 was and remember that 6.4.X refers specifically to entry of supervised premises. If you take your extract and dissect the content then the confusion as to whether non entry route doors should be considered (which of course they are not) would be speculative.

Customers!

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Thanks for your replies!

I have checked the log, but the entries are not there anymore. When the side door was opened and the alarm triggered, I tried to contact the ARC to report the false alarm. However, the alarm company changed my system to a different ARC without notifying me. By he time I found out the number for the new ARC, the Police had turned up. The alarm company then stated that the engineer placed stickers on my panel and wrote on the faded service record that he had updated the digi number to the new ARC. At NO time did they tell me that I was connected to a new ARC, nor does the keypad display the number for the new ARC, as it used to.

As for getting the alarm company to come out to check the system, they have refused as they feel that the system is working correctly - nice alarm company eh? Rest assured that i'm currently trying to find a new alarm company.

Yesterday I asked the ARC to put the system on test, while I tried a few tests of my own. The results were:

  1. Side door slightly open, single activation sent to ARC
  2. Up and over door slightly open, single activation sent to ARC
  3. Side door open wide, me walking in, 2 activations sent to ARC - confirmed alarm.

I can only surmise that the door is causing the PIR to trigger, but it wasn't opened far enough in test 1 - is this allowed? The original activation in March was caused SOLELY by the door being opened, as no one entered the garage. I can post the exact contents of the log if anyone is interested?

BTW, what does Ack CS mean in the log?

Thanks

Brum69

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I then feel your current alarm co are then correct. It is allowed to have a pir and a door contact overlap their coverage. It is possible that the detector saw the door. It does seem your system is setup correctly but may I ask how you reset your system aftert these tests?

Also re the point about them coming out to check. Was this a chargeable or a free visit? I can understand this as from my own company point of view if a visit had already been made and the facts established then I wouldn't send an engineer out for free. However I would send one to test the system with you and if a fault was found not charge.

Also changing alarm company. Some firms specialise in their equipment they use. For example we could not support your panel and this as a minimum would require replacement

James

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As I assumed from the start there appears to be nothing wrong with the system

When the side door was opened and the alarm triggered, I tried to contact the ARC to report the false alarm. However, the alarm company changed my system to a different ARC without notifying me. By he time I found out the number for the new ARC, the Police had turned up. The alarm company then stated that the engineer placed stickers on my panel and wrote on the faded service record that he had updated the digi number to the new ARC. At NO time did they tell me that I was connected to a new ARC, nor does the keypad display the number for the new ARC, as it used to.

I can't think we ever informed a cleint before we've moved accounts numbers or providers, just ensure the contact details are recorded in the log book ect...

As for getting the alarm company to come out to check the system, they have refused as they feel that the system is working correctly - nice alarm company eh?

I'd be more than happy to send somebody on site to the subscribers premises, however it would be chargeable

BTW, what does Ack CS mean in the log?

acknowledge central station (for signal sent)

Mr😀 Veritas God

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I then feel your current alarm co are then correct. It is allowed to have a pir and a door contact overlap their coverage. It is possible that the detector saw the door. It does seem your system is setup correctly but may I ask how you reset your system aftert these tests?

Also re the point about them coming out to check. Was this a chargeable or a free visit? I can understand this as from my own company point of view if a visit had already been made and the facts established then I wouldn't send an engineer out for free. However I would send one to test the system with you and if a fault was found not charge.

Also changing alarm company. Some firms specialise in their equipment they use. For example we could not support your panel and this as a minimum would require replacement

James

I'm not an installer, so i gladly take your advice on this. I telephoned the ARC and asked them to make my system live, so not on test anymore.

I asked the alarm company to attend site FOC, which they refused to do. Not because I wanted the visit to be FOC, just because they didn't think that there was anything wrong with the system. Customer service is not very high on their list, as I obviously feel a charge is relevant if I am at fault.

As for changing alarm companies, I've found that most of the companies will take on my Abacus system. There are a couple who have stated that I would have to change panel, but I would say a good 80% are happy with it. The likes of ADT and Chubb are also happy to take it over, but I wasn't impressed with the non-technical salesman sent from one of those companies- i'm sure you can guess which one!! :proud:

Regards

Brum69

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as I obviously feel a charge is relevant if I am at fault.

id agree i think that is fair enough. As i said i think its fair for them to charge if there is not a fault.

Changing alarm cos will not fix your issue though. WOuld it not be better or at least an option to move the sensor in question so it does not cover that door.

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As I assumed from the start there appears to be nothing wrong with the system

I can't think we ever informed a cleint before we've moved accounts numbers or providers, just ensure the contact details are recorded in the log book ect...

I'd be more than happy to send somebody on site to the subscribers premises, however it would be chargeable

acknowledge central station (for signal sent)

I couldn't give a monkeys about which ARC the alarm company uses, as long as I have their contact details. They originally wrote me a letter stating that the number needed to be changed. What they actually did was to change to a different ARC, without notifying me. When I complained, they stated that I had followed the engineer around my house and knew that the change of ARC had occurred - complete lies. The MO of this company is to simply lie constantly to cover their butt - not the welcomed behaviour of an alarm company. For this reason, I would like to change to a large company, rather than a family run one. At least I would then feel that there are proper procedure in place, along with a willing to do best by the customer.

The fact that my alarm company is NSI Gold certified means absolutely nothing, as I was very unimpressed with their support.

Regards

Brum69

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id agree i think that is fair enough. As i said i think its fair for them to charge if there is not a fault.

Changing alarm cos will not fix your issue though. WOuld it not be better or at least an option to move the sensor in question so it does not cover that door.

Well according to my esteemed alarm company, the door just needs to be made into a second entry zone. If we then open it accidentally in the future, I won't get a confirmed alarm.

Regards

Brum69

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Personally i would inform in writing a change of arc, but if the numbers were chnaged on the keypad / control equipment sticker then its less of an issue.

But apart from that im not sure they have done anything wrong, your system seems to comply etc.

Its a shame your unimpressed as we are nsi gold approved also and push for high customer service. I would say im suprised because family run firms tend to be more customer focused then the bigger firms as people in the company care etc.

Have you had ongoing issues for some time with the firm?

Well according to my esteemed alarm company, the door just needs to be made into a second entry zone. If we then open it accidentally in the future, I won't get a confirmed alarm.

Regards

Brum69

id be careful doing that as it will affect the security of the system. ie if you get broken in that way. I would advise you use a shunt lock on the door instead.

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Personally i would inform in writing a change of arc, but if the numbers were chnaged on the keypad / control equipment sticker then its less of an issue.

But apart from that im not sure they have done anything wrong, your system seems to comply etc.

Its a shame your unimpressed as we are nsi gold approved also and push for high customer service. I would say im suprised because family run firms tend to be more customer focused then the bigger firms as people in the company care etc.

Have you had ongoing issues for some time with the firm?

id be careful doing that as it will affect the security of the system. ie if you get broken in that way. I would advise you use a shunt lock on the door instead.

I also thought that a small company would bend over backwards, but it has not been the case with these people. I've had lots of problem with them, so I stated to look for a new company two years ago. I've narrowed it down to one of the big boys, as the sales guy is an accredited installer and really impressed me with his knowledge. They offer a monthly service covering the monitoring and two inspections for a lot less than i currently pay. They are not the obvious large company, who seem to get a lot of stick on here. I wasn't impressed with their salesman one bit - nor their 3-year minimum contract!!

As for turning the garage door into an entry zone, I too thought it was a daft idea. It would be good if I could know how to stop the door from triggering the PIR though.

Regards

Brum69

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I also thought that a small company would bend over backwards,

Have you ever considered that the customer relationship has been damaged by the actions & attitudes of the customer.

They are not the obvious large company, who seem to get a lot of stick on here. I wasn't impressed with their salesman one bit - nor their 3-year minimum contract!!

Missing out on taking your old controls onto an annual agreement is unlikely to give the sales person any sleepless nights

Mr😀 Veritas God

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