arfur mo Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Just to add to the 'use of the forum' debate (i.e. The interesting bit for engineers before Zap's magic mushroom pizza kicked in!), surely everyone reads forum queries for information and alternative views/ideas to broaden knowledge and experience.All members input may not directly address O/P themselves, but it will add to the possibilities of providing the most appropriate advice in the circumstance known. I'm sure anyone requiring expert opinon in posting a query on any forum type site would welcome all views until a common consensus on the solution emerges from potentially differing views. As someone said previously, it will not just be the originator who will benefit from the expertise view offered, but those of us who are not afraid to admit that we are still learning too! hi newguy, debate and spreading knowledge is one of any forums many membership advantages, but you need to temper information so there is least risk of confusing the DIY person asking quetions. if your in the trade, you can bounce the opinions off your more exoperienced work colleagues or boss the way most of have domne when we started, the o/p is likely to treat what is writen as suggestion as being gospel, and what i'm trying to prevent. no one can say for sure what is wrong from a distance, only put up the most common reasons, this will differ between engineers, bujt the more experienced enginners with regard to fault finding will use analyse before speculation. i could list the many possible reasons for the siren 'squeaking', and how to go about diagnosing which one of them is the cause, might be a great read for engineers learning their trade (certanly a legnthy one ), but a few do go on with -; lid contact in need of adjustment rear contact in need of adjustment rodent damage to the bell cable, building/floorboard damage to the bell cable loose fuse in the panel, intermittent fuse in the panel intermittent fuse in the spur intermitent 'hold off' connection in the panel intermittent joint in an intemdiate j/b, duff battery and intermittent main connection in the spur duff battery and intermittent connection in panel mains block intermittent fuse in mains block loose transformer feeds connection loose transformer output connection all though it happens, all those above and more are far more common faults than the siren itself being actually faulty, any misunderstanding over the importance of taking even a single reading accurately, or worse not having the knowledge to use a DVM properly by the o/p would make the whole exercise a waste of time for him. against all this his siren speaker is disconnected so he has no protection and so no insurrance cover. if reconnected it might start again in the middle of the night, it might also start if the siren is replaced but not actually at fault, so my original advise is the best in that he needs a competant engineer to diagnose the fault on site rather than anuy of us jumping to conclusions. the o/p acting on our mis-diagnosis born of speculation with best intent, will likely be far more expensive for the o/p than an engineers visit - and why i pointed it out. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddma Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 hi newguy,debate and spreading knowledge is one of any forums many membership advantages, but you need to temper information so there is least risk of confusing the DIY person asking quetions. if your in the trade, you can bounce the opinions off your more exoperienced work colleagues or boss the way most of have domne when we started, the o/p is likely to treat what is writen as suggestion as being gospel, and what i'm trying to prevent. no one can say for sure what is wrong from a distance, only put up the most common reasons, this will differ between engineers, bujt the more experienced enginners with regard to fault finding will use analyse before speculation. i could list the many possible reasons for the siren 'squeaking', and how to go about diagnosing which one of them is the cause, might be a great read for engineers learning their trade (certanly a legnthy one ), but a few do go on with -; lid contact in need of adjustment rear contact in need of adjustment rodent damage to the bell cable, building/floorboard damage to the bell cable loose fuse in the panel, intermittent fuse in the panel intermittent fuse in the spur intermitent 'hold off' connection in the panel intermittent joint in an intemdiate j/b, duff battery and intermittent main connection in the spur duff battery and intermittent connection in panel mains block intermittent fuse in mains block loose transformer feeds connection loose transformer output connection all though it happens, all those above and more are far more common faults than the siren itself being actually faulty, any misunderstanding over the importance of taking even a single reading accurately, or worse not having the knowledge to use a DVM properly by the o/p would make the whole exercise a waste of time for him. against all this his siren speaker is disconnected so he has no protection and so no insurrance cover. if reconnected it might start again in the middle of the night, it might also start if the siren is replaced but not actually at fault, so my original advise is the best in that he needs a competant engineer to diagnose the fault on site rather than anuy of us jumping to conclusions. the o/p acting on our mis-diagnosis born of speculation with best intent, will likely be far more expensive for the o/p than an engineers visit - and why i pointed it out. regs alan With the exception of Angus I have to say that the help and general advice given on this forum is totally unhelpful and as I see it only used as a general bickering ground for the trade. Why can't people just help, I bet when you lot have a pc problem you just google for the answer and find it pretty much straight away. You guys must be very protective over your trade, for some reason ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorlton Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 With the exception of Angus I have to say that the help and general advice given on this forum is totally unhelpful and as I see it only used as a general bickering ground for the trade. Why can't people just help, I bet when you lot have a pc problem you just google for the answer and find it pretty much straight away. You guys must be very protective over your trade, for some reason ! the "security" trade protecting things surely not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 With the exception of Angus I have to say that the help and general advice given on this forum is totally unhelpful and as I see it only used as a general bickering ground for the trade. Why can't people just help, I bet when you lot have a pc problem you just google for the answer and find it pretty much straight away. You guys must be very protective over your trade, for some reason ! as you adressed it to my post i'll try to answer you, we engineers have to be careful in what info we give out, for intance you might have an alarm panel made by xyz in your home or business, the another poster also claiming he has the the same xyz panel, askes how to reset say the user code's back to its default. you might think what wrong with that he owns the system after all. but if we posted that info it is possible that poster is a villain then screws his governers home, to add to the fun not only your panels security security but all the other xyz panels security is then compromised, and you can bet the maker of xyz panels would be totally overjoyed. now we could get the same scenario by posting with good intent how to diagnose a certain fault requiring the external siren to be defeated while doing so - would you be happy to know that how to overcome you panel in the fastest way is in general public domain? i think not. not all the scenarios obviously we have to concider before answering but i hope you see we have to be very careful and are not being overly obstructive or protectionistic (we just all disown Angus ). regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 tricky ground to condem the siren based on info supplied thus far, lets face it the uni has operated and cut off after 20 mins indicating (to me) the power has been removed initiating SAB operation for what ever reason.the o/p has disconnected the siren himself, been quoted a price by the original installer to replace the siren, but i'd urge caution here as a comparison - replacing the gearbox on a car to fix a puncture will get nobody any further along the road. the o/p needs a proper diagnostic service visit by a competant service trained engineer to get acurate advice, that is simple sound advice in itself (with sympathy to, but regardless of his finacial constraints), so with respect why are we discussing this issue any further? regs alan I am a competant service trained engineer well at least thats what i thought i was??, you obviously havent had the pleasure of changing an old m + w ES1 in the rain at 3 am in the morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 With the exception of Angus I have to say that the help and general advice given on this forum is totally unhelpful and as I see it only used as a general bickering ground for the trade. Why can't people just help, I bet when you lot have a pc problem you just google for the answer and find it pretty much straight away. You guys must be very protective over your trade, for some reason ! Well to be honest I am a bit surprised by this comment and even with the benefit of hindsight I can't see how any of my posts on this topic could possibly be considered as unhelpful. You initially expressed surprise at a price you were quoted for a replacement sounder, whilst how an individual company chooses to price is their own concern I too was rather surprised so I suggested that you got some comparison quotes and as you had indicated that you hadn't had time to have the system I suggested that some companies might offer you a discount if you signed a maintenace agreement. I then went on to explain that your panel is a popular one and that many bell box manufacturers enclose specific connection diagrams for ADE panels. Obviously if you find any of this advice unhelpful it is probably more a reflection on your inability to understand it than it is a reflection on those who gave the advice. Your comparison with IT faults is misplaced to some extent, diagnosing intruder alarm problems isn't usually that difficult to an experinced engineer but it requires tools such as a multimeter and ladders and it also requires a good knowledge of how alarms work and how they are designed. Again, nothing too difficult but to train somebody to correctly diagnose an intermittent problem like yours via a forum is frankly unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 I am a competant service trained engineerwell at least thats what i thought i was??, you obviously havent had the pleasure of changing an old m + w ES1 in the rain at 3 am in the morning don't you bet you motgage on it mjw most kit has it's design flaws and vulnerbilities, some it's dodgy boards, bad waterproofing or micros switches etc. long long time ago (over 30 years) the rear contact on Chubb bells was prone to go intermittent in hot weather, they used a micro better designed for use in power applications and not very water proof and so on. we enter site as engineers on faults with all our sense's on 'red alert' and soon able to discount the many possible faults and work on the more likely ones often without thinking using tried and trusted logic and tests, but that is tricky to get a non combatant to appreciate we can easily miss saying part of the testing because of our being in 'auto' mode. if i go out to a fault it tends to be on systems unstalled by others but the installer has gone off the radar, i'll spend several minutes close questining the client to see if what they say complies with what i know is the case in the real alarm world. descrepencies often highlight if the kit is at fault or the clients operation/understanding is, so some of the reason for my caution is offering the siren should be replaced without further proof, that can only be from a site visit to be accurate as not many of us can repair systems looking through the letter box . regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernBrad Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Most people have mentioned everything,most likely to be poor connections,non charged battery or a cable slowly being eaten then finally broken so it fell into tamper hence the bell ringing for 20mins then cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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