Cubit Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 hi cubit,i'm honestly not just putting up some 'fun' pedantic argument, i truly happen to totally disagree with you that using a neon screwdriver is in anyway a more dangerous practice or offers any extra real peril. i'm arguing far less peril is offered than the incorrectly using more sophisticated kit, for the the diy'er especially, a pro will (should?) have been properly trained. for anyone to accept any practice a dangerous and so be deterred from using it, surely it is best to explain why, not just make a blanket claim it is so? example, take using a trolley jack on a car and climbing underneath, the very real (but not to obvious) danger to the uninitiated is the jack can suddenly fail or slip and the car crushes you (and i have dug 3 people out my self to date so far, one fatality, one who lost fingers), so lift car with a jack and secure on axle stands and remove the weight off the jack before you get underneath it - i.e. don't rely on the jack alone and the reason why. Ok arfur, assuming you are not the one true altruist in the trade sector; not that this absolves anyone from thei leagal responsibilities you do carry out a risk assessment before using test equipment i take it? - and more pertinently, take this seriously??, if so, the potential risk being? Your magical failsafe neon is compliant with BS61010-1 ?? You follow the recommendations laid out in GS38 ?? When you sat the practical for C&G 2391 - and passed - you used your magical neon as the approved test equipment? And it provided confirmed, verifiable indication that the system under test was safe? Electricity at work Act? etc etc As much as you do try and avoid the issue, it is for you to prove your equipment is 'fit for purpose', not for others to prove why it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topalarms Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 listen pal - if you wanna go head to head I`m more than ready BUT get your facts straight before you kick off.so far in this thread alone you`ve wrongly claimed a hard wired system doesnt need to comply with wiring regs (the clue is in the title) anyone can fit anything anyway they like for any amount of money as long as they dont say there fitting it enviromental pollution laws are voluntary Part P can just be ignored and there just the few I could be bothered to read, mentioning no names your just another of the DIY`ers playing at been an alarm engineer - you don`t know the regs, you dont know the law and you dont seem to have any advice to offer other than what you manage to gleam by hastily searching the site, leave the yellow smillies of it out the jokes on you As usual you have totally missed the point of the question, misinterpreted what was said and sidetracked, this time to Part P and other professional qualifications, procedures and requirements. Take your claims on a DIYer fitting the B&Q plugin alarm to trading standards, county court or anywhere else you like - you'll be laughed out of the building. It is not a requirement for a DIYer to fit it to EN/BS/PD alarm regulations and that has nothing to do with electrical wiring regs, other than plugging it into a socket its not even necessary to make an electrical connection! Alarm regs exist to provide a standard for professionally installed systems which can be inspected and are provided as a means of safeguarding all parties including the customer and the insurer. DIYers can comply with them if they choose and good for them if they do, but they simply don't have to and you seem unable to understand the difference. By the way why not write to the local councils and get them to prosecute all those millions of professionally installed systems with naughty flashing strobes causing environmental pollution for more than 20 minutes. Oh and werent you going to put me on ignore, or couldnt you find the button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Oh and werent you going to put me on ignore, or couldnt you find the button? no mate - your so ill informed it needs someone to counter balance your incorrect advise, but the forums always been full of chancers trying to be "billy big talk....." your nothing new, have no substance and not really listened too get your facts right (not just what YOU think things are ) and start fresh would be my advice - looking at your companys training manual might be a good first step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Ok arfur, assuming you are not the one true altruist in the trade sector; not that this absolves anyone from thei leagal responsibilitiesyou do carry out a risk assessment before using test equipment i take it? - and more pertinently, take this seriously??, if so, the potential risk being? Your magical failsafe neon is compliant with BS61010-1 ?? You follow the recommendations laid out in GS38 ?? When you sat the practical for C&G 2391 - and passed - you used your magical neon as the approved test equipment? And it provided confirmed, verifiable indication that the system under test was safe? Electricity at work Act? etc etc As much as you do try and avoid the issue, it is for you to prove your equipment is 'fit for purpose', not for others to prove why it isn't. hi Cubit, i am not trying to avoid any issue's, i think first it better you know my actual background a bit more. i never did any city & guilds type exam, i am not an ex sparks so i don't claim any specialist knowledge in that field, only what i have picked up along the way. i was taught my alarm trade by several ex sparks, after 18 months i sat a written/practacle exam and made it to what was then called "Grade 2" as an alarm engineer. which was as high as Chubb ever gave anybody at the time, unless your into a brown nosing, but nobody was ever awarded it. G2 meant you were proficient to install systems to a good standard unsupervised. you had to know all the panels past and present, and every single component, value and what it did because you were expected to repair down to pcb level - even a 3am without even circuit drawings - bless! explaining the above shows (i hope) i am extremely serious in this 'quest', this is not any clever words wriggle, we are in the DIY/Public section and i'm concerned about everyones safety as well as my own not to make a joke out of it. you and others have claimed or represented the use of a neon screwdriver as being an extremely dangerous practice, but as yet nothing shows me why, so i don't share your opinion as much as i respect your views. asking what i do is not informing jo public why you stated it is so dangerous to use a neion screwdriver or in anyway support's the vehemence used in berating me for suggesting it. i have to say here i was a bit appalled and was close to sending back a fer nukes of my own, but this is not the place. i encourage anyone especially if not trained to get in a trained and competent person (take another look at my footer) as the top advice, but if someone is going to insist on ignoring that advice and opening a panel, it's my honest opinion that it is surely safer to advise after switching off the spur/unplugging, to make sure it's power is off before inserting their fingers with gay abandonment. using a simple to understand and operate neon screwdriver as a secondary safety test just baffles me what is so very wrong with that advice that i think is so prudent? shouting out indignantly "it is very dangerous practice", and "i should know better" without ever explaining why, surely only serves to place a j/p in much greater peril than can easily be reduced by deterring them from a cautioned sensible practice. lets compare rationally, i think i can safely say most homes will have a neon screwdriver, ok yours don't but are you sure one is not kicking around in the tool box (or knife drawer ) , most can understand how to use it even if they seem never to come with the instructions. 'against' this simple device, most homes will not have any type of meter, if they do only a small percentage of those users would actually know how to use one properly and safely, and then what condition will it and it's leads be in - do you care to comment on this? on a cheap meter it is very easy to blow a range or ranges if inadvertently if set to amps and connected across a battery or mains. depending on design a fuse will pop or the meters the board/components get damaged. the user is not proficient in most cases and can't see this damage, so is not aware or ignores/forgets it. later they use the same meter on the mains with a damaged board, and the subsequent false results could be fatal so no argument there would you not agree? use a neon to double check is less likely to be fatal would you also not agree? personally, i always check physical condition by 1st looking and test anything connected to the mains for my own safety (let alone anyone else's) before and after i work on it (dammed if the ruling half is going to get the insurance ). i'm not saying the neon screwdriver is the perfect or 'messiah' magic tool for a pro to use, i tend to use one to help confirm the zero meter readings and/or hot finger can be trusted, and to guard against those 'blond moments' we all have from time to time when we are distracted or tired. trust me, exercising such caution when out in the field has paid dividends many many times, even when told a circuit was 'off' by experienced electricians and has happened on several occasions when it was'nt (assassination attempts by rjbsec perhaps ), to the point i insist anyone who works with/for me, has to double check either with preferably a hot finger against meter, or neon against hot finger but when not available a neon screwdriver is the minimum test, it would take a major act of convincing argument to get me to do or think otherwise. i honestly thought you would relate to the possibility of the insulation breaking down, the neon exploding and blinding the user, the user being isolated from earth having stood on a car mat having read thats what electricians have to do (so not completing the circuit), or using it in a bright light where the glow could not be seen. all the above are a possibility, it's the probability against the danger of not using it that has to be considered as any tool is dangerous if not used within its design limits, but on balance i think the simple neon screwdriver comes out pretty good to improve safety overall, darn site better than nothing at all. the above is my honest opinion, i've not tried to conciously avoid any relevant points or talk (filly bust) out any arguments. if i'm wrong then please rip me apart with facts, sensible example's or actual experience's as to know is the base plank of facts to lead to understanding. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! 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arfur mo Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 it has mate - the fact that yet AGAIN you dont like the answer is your problem, nobody elses(and forget what TA was saying - he doesnt even know what day of the week it is IMO) not a riddle at all (get off your high horse for once) you should test phase to neutral phase to earth neutral to earth now tell me how you do that with your NEON? thanks angus, saved me typing it , i also test from panel earth connection and case to a nearby consumer box case or water/gas pipe, but hey i'm just a cautious old fart i'm curious, where am i appearing to be on a high horse? i'm not dictating to anyone or screaming your wrong, i don't agree with those who say its dangerous and so i'm asking for an explanation why anyone so strongly considerer's a neon screwdriver is a dangerous practice, see my reply to cubit as i don't want to write it all again. agreed, a neon screwdriver will not test across phases, but then would a diy'er do so in any case? personally i don't think so what a neon will do is indicate a voltage higher than 90 vac present on a single core even if both nuetral and earth became disconnected, but what is the likelihood of a non combatant ever making such a test? more likely if they did of getting a shock using a meter surely? but we are both then scratching around possibilities not the probabilities, as such a situation would be i hope fairly rare. now lets throw in flat meter battery (never happens on a neon screwdriver ), throw in broken meter leads (never happens on a neon screwdriver ) throw in chaffed leads (never happens on a neon screwdriver ) throw in intermittent leads ........... well if i'm on partly right on the above, i ask if using and trusting any meter is not far more dangerous than using and trusting neon screwdriver? what has been argued so far imo and with all the greatest respect to the authors, only offers examples of if a neon is incorrectly used or used outside of it's remit, but hey that applies to meters, roller skates and parrelel bars too. on balance it's still my view there is a much higher probability of incorrect or even worse a misunderstood use of a meter presenting a true danger, than ever posed by using a neon screwdriver in conjunction with any 'belt & brace's' safety test. i'd bet most hobbyist's or lets say non-engineers who own a meter got it as a present, have opened the box, inserted the battery whiuch has by now gone flat and got bored by the unintelligible 'enqrush' instructions, so tried it out on a light bulb then across a plug top, with a good chance of being on the wrong range and blowing it up if not killing themselves there and then. so now it's been chucked in a drawer, along with the socket set and club hammer, the leads have been used for shoe laces on little johny's soccer boots the above is very typical of real life, so people lets work within it - because we can't change it no matter how well intentioned. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 here's an experiment for everyone, and i can't influence it in any way if you spot a sparky, just ask politely if you can borrow his/her neon screwdriver for a moment please - odds on 8 out of 10 will and not bat an eyelid, while one will not admit to owning one (because he borrows anyone elses's) and the last guy will be to tight fisted to lend it in the 1st place go on - have a go regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topalarms Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 no mate - your so ill informed it needs someone to counter balance your incorrect advise, but the forums always been full of chancers trying to be "billy big talk....." your nothing new, have no substance and not really listened tooget your facts right (not just what YOU think things are ) and start fresh would be my advice - looking at your companys training manual might be a good first step you actually believe what you write don't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateurandy Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 if you spot a sparky, just ask politely if you can borrow his/her neon screwdriver Or if you spot a builder as to borrow his hard hat, ear defenders and eye protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breff Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I think its time to draw a line under this topic The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct! (Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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