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Hi From Kent - Cctv Advice

Started by Guest_matopia_*, Jan 01 2006 01:33 PM

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#1 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 01:33 PM

Hi fellow forum masters.

I just registered on this forum in the hope that I can learn from others, get advice, and some much needed help etc.

I am looking to purchase (soon but after some serious research & advice & reviews) a CCTV x 2 + PC software to watch over my house (front towards road) and my car, as I have been vandalised twice in a month (once to the house and now to my new car). The police keep asking if there was any photo/video footage, so I am thinking CCTV is the answer now.

I want the cameras (x2) to be linked to a dedicated network/Web PC so I can monitor the cameras from anywhere (work, home etc). Camera 1 must have night vision camera with 30m to 50m range. Preferably a high resolution of > 400 (TVL = ?). I have the PC's/web/lan already, so only after cameras, cabling, PSU.

I look forward to chatting to anyone who can help and offer constructive advice that will ultimately result in me purchasing a CCTV kit by the end of January 2006.

Happy New Year everyone.

cheers.

Mike

#2

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 02:02 PM

What about the specs for camera 2, and a budget?

To get a decent night vision setup to work at 50m you need plenty of £££, not just a couple of hundred for some eBay cheapies and a PCI card.

#3 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 03:25 PM

View PostLurch, on Jan 1 2006, 02:02 PM, said:

What about the specs for camera 2, and a budget?

To get a decent night vision setup to work at 50m you need plenty of £££, not just a couple of hundred for some eBay cheapies and a PCI card.

Hi Lurch,

Ok, put it this way, I don't have a clue what I need. Perhaps I should be more specific in my details and what I have at the moment.

I live in a terraced house, the road (10m wide) is roughly 4m from my front door. (2m of steps down to a 2m wide pavement). My car is normally parked opposite my door (4m's away) or across the road on the pavement (+-14m away).

Vandals/local kids/thugs/hoodigans are currently breaking things on my car, (mirrors, glass, wipers, tyres etc). I have also recently had a rock thrown through my front window of my terraced house, so I am looking for a camera(s) that can monitor my car from my house and possibly monitor the outside of my property to the road and/or across the road.

So the distance of 50m was probably a bit over the top. I want something that can give me some evidence of the vandals so I can give this to the police the next time I call them. (2 incidents so far in a month, I suspect this is not the end of it).

Budget := I am willing to spend up to 250GBP on 1x good camera, which I hope can have all the bells and whistles to be used outside for daytime and night time use. The 2nd camera doesn't really matter for now, if it is needed, then fine. I was thinking it could be used from within the house through the window or possibly outside, just at another location, or hidden, although the front of my house is only 4m wide, so positioning is a bit limited.

My plan was to use a dedicated PC (Pentium 4, 512MB RAM, Large HD to be bought as the need arises, LAN, Web, Static IP address). - I have looked at DVR's but can't really see the advantage over a PC. - I also plan on using Security Software such as Geovison or the likes. Any advice here is welcome.

So, any suggestions on a possible make and model for camera 1, or a possible solution for the above problem.

Thanks for the comments so far.

Mike :)

Edited by Lurch, 01 January 2006 - 04:21 PM.

#4 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 05:50 PM

View Postmatopia, on Jan 1 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

I live in a terraced house, the road (10m wide) is roughly 4m from my front door. (2m of steps down to a 2m wide pavement). My car is normally parked opposite my door (4m's away) or across the road on the pavement (+-14m away).

Vandals/local kids/thugs/hoodigans are currently breaking things on my car, (mirrors, glass, wipers, tyres etc). I have also recently had a rock thrown through my front window of my terraced house, so I am looking for a camera(s) that can monitor my car from my house and possibly monitor the outside of my property to the road and/or across the road.

Budget := I am willing to spend up to 250GBP on 1x good camera, which I hope can have all the bells and whistles to be used outside for daytime and night time use. The 2nd camera doesn't really matter for now, if it is needed, then fine. I was thinking it could be used from within the house through the window or possibly outside, just at another location, or hidden, although the front of my house is only 4m wide, so positioning is a bit limited.

My plan was to use a dedicated PC (Pentium 4, 512MB RAM, Large HD to be bought as the need arises, LAN, Web, Static IP address). - I have looked at DVR's but can't really see the advantage over a PC. - I also plan on using Security Software such as Geovison or the likes. Any advice here is welcome.

So, any suggestions on a possible make and model for camera 1, or a possible solution for the above problem.

Mike :)
Well I have spent most of the afternoon reading loads of topics on this forum and have come to the decision that I do not need to go the PC route. Much to my surprise, I definitely think a DVR with LAN support is the answer, so I will be shopping for one of them soon.

Which still leaves me with the camera to get, but which one?
I have looked at a couple but only one stands out so far and that is the CC70CSHRX-4IR Colour-IR with 50m range.

What is the difference between 12mm lense and 4mm lense? Which is the best option to get?

This is the only camera so far that I have like (the sound of), unless anyone can recommend something better or more suitable for my type of surveilance.

cheers,

Mike

#5 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 06:17 PM

View PostPeter James, on Jan 1 2006, 05:51 PM, said:

Geovision is not just software you need the hardware to go with it.

TBH geovision card could let you down due to compatibility problems with your motherboard, they are very tempermental and often stop recording when you need them to record most, or crash and corrupt all the recordings made on the harddrive 5 mins after recording the info you need.

In short there are not that many RELIABLE ways of doing it without either using a decent DVR or good old tape.

£250 will buy a decent camera(Samsung 520) and housing(Chem) but not the lighting to go with it, whats the ambient light like?

Pete
Hi Pete,

There is a street light about 20 meters down the road, but it's quite dark. I have a red car so it's visible. This is why I was looking at the IR cameras.

You are correct on the Geovision and the extra hardware needed and the possible PC Problems, and after my research this afternoon, I have decided the PC route is not the most favourable way to go. I will definitely be getting a 4 channel DVR, preferably one with LAN / CDRW / USB2.0 / Flash Card support. I might even consider an eight channel DVR as the extra channels might come in handy in the future. (only problem is my wife but after last nights vandalism I think I might just get my way) :)

I will have a look at the camera you suggested. I looked at many cameras, and there are so many to choose from, not quite sure what is needed and how they perform in the said conditions. The only one I have really liked the sound of so far is the link:-> Colour Sony IR Camera at 155GBP or 200GBP with the extra 12mm lense + 12v 1200ma Power Supply + 25m cable.

So I am still open to suggestions.
Thanks to everyone who have replied so promptly.

cheers,
Mike

View PostAlarm Guard, on Jan 1 2006, 06:06 PM, said:

Matopia

I have looked at the camera at the link you supplied. Looks a good camera.... but remember that all the details are supplied in a sales format. I wouldn't like to rely on getting good images at range in the dark. It may be fine on a dry night, but on a wet night the image could be very poor.

One more point. The power supply is as important as any other part of the system. Lots of people fit good equipment and a cheap power supply which either leads to reliability problems, or at the worst can damage your cameras

Paul
Hi Paul,

Fair comments, and I am aware of the sales pitch most stores put on their web sites. I tend to review everything I find over and over again until I have exhausted all avenues. I am in no rush, and will probably spend a couple of weeks in this forum and others alike before I make my final decision.

Good point about the Power Supply. As noted above with that particular camera there was a note to buy an extra powerful PSU. I will keep that in mind.

I am thinking at the maximum I would require a 20 metre range (possibly 30 metres if the camera is to be installed high up looking down), and that really was my motive for looking at a 50 metre range camera (because I am sure a 30m range camera doesn't give true 30 metre range, and 50m range probably only gives good 30m range). Do you see what I mean?

As for wet conditions, I would like to say these vandals don't venture out into that type of weather, but to my surprise they seems to thrive in miserable conditions, so you are right, the camera may not perform as well in wet & dark conditions.

cheers,
Mike

Edited by matopia, 01 January 2006 - 07:16 PM.

#6 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:12 PM

View PostPeter James, on Jan 1 2006, 06:55 PM, said:

You can be let down with the results with these ir led type cameras. They see 50m alright but a dot 50m away is not exactly useful.

Expect to get 10m of usefull picture from this sort of camera and you wont be dissapointed.

To decent pics you need use a wide angle ir lamp positioned under the camera, but you need to spend money.

Pete
So, are you saying the cameras that offer 10m or 20m range are a waste of time if a 50m camera is only going to get 1/5th the actual range.

So these cameras that have built in IR, are not so great, and you saying I really need a seperate IR lamp.

Of course my next thought is this type of camera/IR will be quite visible to the public walking by? My worry is that it will become a target for the vandal who is already prepared to damage my property.

As I do not own a camera at the moment, so don't know the answer to my next question, does CCTV act as a deterrent to the would be vandal?

Mike

#7 WatchdogSecurity

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:23 PM

Sounds like you have had similar problems to me. On my house i have 2 X cameras, comprising of Dennard Camera Housings with Baxall Day Night Cameras watching driveway and back garden, (Day night cameras, are Colours / Mono and they flip to mono when the lux level becomes to low, which then is useful for the IR Lamps, as colour cameras struggle with IR illumination)

The IR lamps are Have are Dennard IR883s 20 and 50 watt, these are very expensive if bought new, but youj can pick these up on ebay, may have a spare 1 or 2 myself, but you will need Photocell / psus for these. TRhese are professional bits of kit and will get you the illuminatrion you require.

I Have a Silent witness anti vandel dome on the front, which is watching the front of the property.

All in all it depends on what you want to spend. Glad your going down the DVR route.

Good luck with whatever you do..

Dean
Watchdog Security (Manchester)

#8 Guest_rjbsec_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:25 PM

View Postmatopia, on Jan 1 2006, 07:12 PM, said:

does CCTV act as a deterrent to the would be vandal?
My experience is that it does, provided it is not possible for the vandal to damage the camera without being seen. In one of my sites, an inner city school, I actually have cameras monitoring some of the cameras!
Larger visible units inside thermostatically controlled housings are a good deterrent and whilst infrared lighting is generally going to be best it is expensive and an alternative could be sensor controlled flood or ornamental lighting, which has the dual effect of allowing the camera to "see" and of discouraging the vandal by the light.
Anything much beyond 10 metres is unlikely to produce pleasing results in a non-professional installation IMO.

#9 xx badwolf xx

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:29 PM

Hi Mike

I would say that CCTv does work as a deterant as we have fit systems to many a customer with anti social problems. 95% of the time curing problems within the week

id have to agree with pete on thedvr front try someone like LJD we would normally sell the customer a 4 channel lite unit with cd-w

as for the cameras weuse Pecan PH60hlt for spec try this link

http://www.stortech....p?cat=16&sub=82

This willcover 10m with 4-8 mm verifocal lens or try the PH76 for alarger distance.

Regards mark
Mark Smith, Director, S M Fire & Security Ltd, Bradford

#10 Service Engineer

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:33 PM

From these types of Camera's:
Attached File  camera.jpg   8.06K   48 downloads Attached File  post_1_1112365366_thumb.jpg   9.36K   17 downloads

You'll get this sort of quality picture:
Attached File  dull_day.jpg   229.1K   90 downloads Attached File  night_with_sodium_flood.jpg   217.75K   81 downloads

Pic1 = Daytime ( A dull day)
Pic2 = Nightime with assistance of 70W sodium flood.

As you can see quality isn't too impressive. The 1st car is approx 9 meters away, the last car about 25 meters. The camera is the one on the left mounted at 5 meters.

Both the above cams are supposedly 420TVL, and supposedly sony chipped.
........................................................
Dave Partridge (Service Engineer)

#11 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:52 PM

Wow! Thank you for all the comments from Dean, David, Mark and RJBSEC...

The idea of a sensor light (didn't think of that), is a good idea and I know quite a few neighbours already have these in our street, except they don't have CCTV, but a good point.

So, a little more research on the cameras then. I will look at the links provided and if I've got any questions I will reply later.

cheers,

Mike

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:11 AM

View PostPeter James, on Jan 1 2006, 05:51 PM, said:

£250 will buy a decent camera(Samsung 520) and housing(Chem) but not the lighting to go with it, whats the ambient light like?

Pete
Hi again,

How strong are the bracket and housing? Could they be damaged if someone tried to throw something at it like a ball or a bottle or a rock. I am just thinking of the possibilities or am I being over cautious.

I've looked at the Samsung 520, it seems to be the camera I need. Are the dimensions correct; 55(W) X 57(H) X 135(L) mm (Without Lens) - That seems very small. How big is the lense?

Once the camera is in a housing (and I looked at the CHEM housing and bracket), will the housing have any effect on the LUX.

In terms of lighting, I am thinking of getting a sensor light that comes on when there is movement in it's range? Will that be good enough, or should I look at getting some IR lamp (and how do these lights switch on when the need arises? Do they work like the sensor lamps or ornamental lighting sensors)?

I have also looked at DOME camera's (the anti-vandal) ones, but haven't really found one on par with the Samsung 520. Can anyone recommend a dome camera that would be suitable for my needs (as above). Are DOME cameras recommended or should I stay clear of them.

#13 Guest_rjbsec_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:46 AM

View Postmatopia, on Jan 2 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

Once the camera is in a housing (and I looked at the CHEM housing and bracket), will the housing have any effect on the LUX.
There should be no noticeable effect.

View Postmatopia, on Jan 2 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

In terms of lighting, I am thinking of getting a sensor light that comes on when there is movement in it's range? Will that be good enough, or should I look at getting some IR lamp (and how do these lights switch on when the need arises? Do they work like the sensor lamps or ornamental lighting sensors)?
IR lamps have a photocell which switches the lamp on in low light.
If using standard sensor lights be aware of the need for illumination where you want to see at night - you may need more than 1 or you may need floodlighting. A good IR lamp is going to cost you as much as the camera and the "bulb" will need regular replacement at a fairly hefty cost also.

View Postmatopia, on Jan 2 2006, 11:11 AM, said:

I have also looked at DOME camera's (the anti-vandal) ones, but haven't really found one on par with the Samsung 520. Can anyone recommend a dome camera that would be suitable for my needs (as above). Are DOME cameras recommended or should I stay clear of them.
A good standard camera will generally give a better image than a good dome camera - if you go for dome due to fear of vandalism you will need to ensure that you get a day/night version or you will not be able to see anything at night.

#14 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 12:43 PM

View Postrjbsec, on Jan 2 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

A good standard camera will generally give a better image than a good dome camera - if you go for dome due to fear of vandalism you will need to ensure that you get a day/night version or you will not be able to see anything at night.
Thank you for your comments. :hmm: I am now undecided.

Let me approach this another way.

Photo1: Here is a view from my window (looking down where my car would be parked). The little roof is on top of a small bay window, which is my lounge window. All I want the camera to see is the pavement and/or the little patch of land in front of my window as well as watch the car park below (where that silver car is parked) and/or the red car on the other side of the road.
Posted Image
Photo2: Is where I park when I can't park outside my house. And so, this was the reason I was wanting a camera that could cover the range.
Posted Image
Photo3: is a view from the other side of the road where I would normally park (as in photo2).
Posted Image

Where would be the best place to put the camera(s) and how high up should it be?

Will I be needing more than one camera to cover what I want covered (pavement/car and/or other side of road). I am thinking yes... :) and knowing what you know now, do I need a dome (day/night) camera or the Samsung 520 or something else?

Sorry to be a pain...

cheers,

Mike

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 01:12 PM

View Postmatopia, on Jan 2 2006, 12:43 PM, said:

Where would be the best place to put the camera(s) and how high up should it be?

Without a doubt, I'd locate the camera under the eaves (to provide protection from rain) and the field of view wuold be reasonable enough to covver across the street if you're parket there. One of the cameras featured earlier, with inbuild IR array round the lens would provide illumination and any spill would reflect off the building front. You'll just have to route the wiresnto the loft space then down to your recorder.

#16 norman

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 01:19 PM

I would mount the camera lower down as to capture some facial features, high up and you will get a good coverage but only of the tops of heads.
Never wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in sh1t and the pig enjoys it!

#17 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 01:52 PM

View PostRaymond, on Jan 2 2006, 01:12 PM, said:

Without a doubt, I'd locate the camera under the eaves (to provide protection from rain) and the field of view wuold be reasonable enough to covver across the street if you're parket there. One of the cameras featured earlier, with inbuild IR array round the lens would provide illumination and any spill would reflect off the building front. You'll just have to route the wiresnto the loft space then down to your recorder.
You mean something like this (taken from above)... :)
Posted Image



View Postnorman, on Jan 2 2006, 01:19 PM, said:

I would mount the camera lower down as to capture some facial features, high up and you will get a good coverage but only of the tops of heads.
:hmm: Does anyone have footage of what to expect from a particular camera at a defined height. (I have seen an example of footage for the (IR camera) and according to the author it was not great.

As long as it stops these vandals damaging my property or makes them aware that they are being monitored, then mission accomplished Mr Bond!

I suppose higher up near/under the eves will capture heads and survey the area I want to watch, and perhaps a 2nd camera (spy/covert camera) well hidden can be lower to capture face features... :)

This is going to cost money hey!

#18 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 02:47 PM

Posted Image
What does 0 LUX with IR mean?
What sort of MINIMUM LUX should I be looking for in a camera?
What is radient distance of 10 mean?

I've been looking at the above Beam Spread and 35 degrees is that good or bad? How can one get that increased and does that mean radient distance needs to increase or decrease?

Posted Image
I had a look at another dome camera and it mentioned it had Built in Vari-Focal 3.5-8mm Lens apposed to what?

What is the advantage of Vari Focal? Can this be adjusted remotely at the DVR?

cheers,

Mike

#19 Guest_rjbsec_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 02:47 PM

A day/night camera will allow you to see colour at day and mono at night, colour produces a much better degree of clarity for identification. You will need suitable light, be it sensor operated standard lighting or some form of infrared lighting.
A camera fitted at lower level, say about the height of your satellite dish, will provide the best "capture" due to the steep angle down to the point where your car will be parked. The camera you display in your post has a very flimsy bracket and I would not use it if I lived in your house, I would probably opt for one or more vandal-resist day/night dome cameras with onboard infrared LED's for minimal illumination, though there aren't many around with the infrared LED's.


http://www.digitalvideos.co.uk/productimag...RVFPRO-spec.pdf

Attached Files


Edited by rjbsec, 02 January 2006 - 02:57 PM.

#20 Guest_matopia_*

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 03:27 PM

View Postrjbsec, on Jan 2 2006, 02:47 PM, said:

A day/night camera will allow you to see colour at day and mono at night, colour produces a much better degree of clarity for identification. You will need suitable light, be it sensor operated standard lighting or some form of infrared lighting.
A camera fitted at lower level, say about the height of your satellite dish, will provide the best "capture" due to the steep angle down to the point where your car will be parked. The camera you display in your post has a very flimsy bracket and I would not use it if I lived in your house, I would probably opt for one or more vandal-resist day/night dome cameras with onboard infrared LED's for minimal illumination, though there aren't many around with the infrared LED's.
http://www.digitalvideos.co.uk/productimag...RVFPRO-spec.pdf
Cool, thanks for the advice... I think I am going to use dome cameras as you suggest. Just one question. I understand I need extra lighting, but what are those LED's surrounding the lense in that camera you have posted? Do they not offer light at night?
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