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Engineer Manuals

Engineer Manuals  

758 members have voted

  1. 1. Engineer Manuals

    • Engineer--Provide them if Asked
      173
    • Engineer--Do not provide them at all
      163
    • User--Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s
      14
    • User--Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual
      267
    • Un-decided
      10


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Regardless of what the consumer wants, as far as this site is concerned our hands are tied, because of threats of legal action by certain manufacturers we cannot be seen to be distributing engineer information to alarm users.

When this site was 1st started I made every manual available to anyone that wanted it, all they had to do was ask, as its my opinion that a customer should not be held to ransom by its security installer. Indeed if the customer feels he has the required knowledge to look after and maintain his own system, then I cant see any reason why he shouldn`t be allowed to do so, but his insurance company might. In fact a lot of systems are not very complicated at all and the engineer instructions would be very easy to follow even for a layman.

It is my belief that manufacturers and installers dont want this information made available because the public would see just how easy most alarm systems are to silence, disable and default.


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself.

If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals? Maybe people would see how easy it was to fix their cars and see how much a rip off a garage was...

but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent)

These are not supplied by the manufacturer! and you have got to buy one ;)

So what's the difference between a alarm panel and a TV etc, why should one have a Engineers manual and one not have a Engineers manual...

I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer...

jpaul


There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.

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Guest Affinity

but you can get the manuals from sony on the net though

Is this another watch this space topic??? :rolleyes:

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but you can get the manuals from sony on the net though

But can you get them from Sony?

http://www.sony.co.uk/support/faqinstmanuals.asp

It dosen't say you can have the Engineers manuals.. ;)

But maybe I'am looking in the wrong place... :D

jpaul


There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.

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JPaul I think your missing the point slightly.

If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself.
No you dont get the service manual, but you get a user manual explaining in great detail all of the features of the product you have purchased.

You cant compare an engineer manual for fixing a TV to a an alarm engineers manual for programming an alarm, and if manufacturers had a Servicing and repairs manual for their products then i dont think you`d get one of those either.

If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals?
Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.

My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it.


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it.

Couldnt of put it better myself!!

Users should not have any installer/engineer manuals!

Users should have the cut version normally called the User guide!

Now, I wonder why the called a USER guide a user guide? And, I wonder why they called an ENGINEER guide an engineer guide?

Warren


Red Fox | Hosting

Affordable and Reliable UK Based Web Hosting

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I'm sure in todays modern tecnological world, someone determined enough to want to have an engineer manual can find what he wants with enough persistence. My hobby for example. I am part of a scene that recreates real existing and long gone fruit machines that can be played on the PC. The manufacturers and the trade don't help us at all but we can find almost all the resources we need to recreate a fruit machine by looking in the right places on the internet. Persistence does pay as long as you are patient.

I'm sure the point here is wether these forums offer engineer information to whoever asks. Me personally, I'd say no. Simply to avoid all the hassles that may come from providing such a service. Like I said, if you look hard enough, the manuals can be sourced somewhere. All this site will do in providing a service of offering manuals to the public is create an easy method to gain information that is difficult to get. I reckon such a service would also be open to abuse by those who want nothing else but an easy source to download anything and everything available for their own advantage. Can you see 'Mr Smith' just downloading a manual for his Menvier TS500? i'm sure he'll soon be back for more if only to see how other alarms fare.

Tony


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Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.
Hi Dave

I think you have answered your own question, the engineer/install manual is designed for the person (whether it be a DIY'er or alarm engineer) who installed the system, its not designed for the end user...(unless they installed it themselves)

The point I was tiring to make was that most end users don't want a engineer manual because they need to charge some programming, they want it because something has gone wrong with the system and they want to repair it..

I think this is something the manufacturer of the panels need to sort out, do things like entry/exit timers need to be in engineer programming or could they be changed from user programming..etc <_<

It would be nice to see what lads on the group that work for a manufacturer think about this.

Whats the view's of SSAIB/NSI on giving engineer manuals to end users?

As I said,

"I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer..."

jpaul


There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.

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Guest Gimmick

This appears to be a subject that can have extensive opinions and I feel obliged (nay . . just cheeky) to also pass on my own comments.

From a Manufacturer's point of view, as have to consider support issues as well as system integrity. I agree with the common thread here that the Engineering Manuals should NOT be provided to the End User (sorry to the end user that started this discussion point).

When you buy a hi-fi, you don't get the manual (in fact the Manufacturer generally refuses people access to electronic design schematics).

When you get a mobile phone you have the manual on how to use it, but not the manual on how it works electronically.

There is no direct comparison to this issue and other commercial products unfortunately. Owning a PDA might entitle you to some of the engineering documentation, but that is an electronic "tool" for organising your home or office. Here we are talking about a security system (commercial or residential) that is protecting both material assets and potentially . . peoples safety.

If a "system" is modified by an End User to the point where it is no longer secure, where does the responsibility lie if there are problems in the future? If an End User has no "need to modify the system" as I have had quoted at our Support Helpine . . then why do they need the engineering manuals.

In general we use our own judgement on the provision of Engineering Manuals, giving them out only to people who seem capable of determining terminology and the basics of electronics/electrics. If an End User asks for documentation simply because "they think they should have them", they are unfortunately refused (politely of course). This is because of my second concern . . the support issue. If we provide End Users with engineering documentation that is beyond their normal scope of understanding (non-industry or simply not up to the task) we are giving them an open invitation to make numerous repeat calls to any available Support Helplines, in order to resolve any problems that they may have. Since our Helpline does not provide direct support to End Users, providing Engineering Manuals is simply going to cause problems in the future when they call for help . . . only to be told that it is not policy to support End Users. Why did we provide the manual in the first place.

There see . . . I rant again.

Gimmick.

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Guest Interlynx Security
I can go into my laptop and tell you the settings for all my customers panels,

Don't you think thats a bit dangerous? Carrying around top secret security-compromising data, on something as nickable as a laptop?

What happens when all your customer's data is stolen? Does your efficacy insurance cover this kind of mishap? Ours doesnt!...

We have been using biometric encrypted usb plugin thingies for our engineers.

And they are only allowed one site at a time! At least we can only get sued one at a time!!!

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Guest dale

Well the wintex software is password protected anyway, and is backed up at the office so if we loose the laptop we only have to replace the laptop and restore the data.

Also, seen as my undergrad degree and postgrad degree are both in computer science I know how to secure the laptops exceptionally well. If god forbid one gets stolen the theif will have a job de-crypting the hard disks to even get to the wintex software. So in all fairness unless the laptop gets stolen by someone with a Phd and a supercomputer I think the data is pretty safe!

Dale

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Dale, wintex may be password protected but is the hard drive?

It only needs to be connected to a pc with an adaptor and if someone copies your customer directory and they have their own copy of wintex they can import all your files.

PS. I too have every Premier Ive ever done on my laptop and realise that the chances of the above happening are low, but you should be aware of it and take extra care of the laptop.

Glenn


The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct!

(Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not)

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Dale I really wish I had fully read your post properly.

DOH!!!


The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct!

(Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not)

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Guest IanA

From a manufacturers viewpoint, I believe that customers should not be able to change the programming of their alarm systems.

Whilst they should have control of certain aspects such as chime, and possibly omitting Circuits, this should be acessed through a user menu rather than allowing them access to programming menus, where any Control Panel could very easily be rendered useless.

Reminds me of the proverb 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

It is also questionable whether they would be allowed to change programming on a System installed to EN50131, where programming is a level 3 access which is intended to be by alarm company personnel, but that is another subject entirely :D

post-18-1085665753.gif

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Guest wend

I was wondering if anyone could help me to get hold of the installation/operating manual for the Yale HSA3000 wireless alarm system. I purchased one a couple of years ago and with a house move have mislaid the manual. I have a friend who is a qualified electrician who has tested the system and everything works but without the operating manual can't find out how to program it.

Any help to find te manual asap would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Wend :unsure:

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Guest SCA

I think the average person would struggle to understand the programming side of anything more than a optima 6, before i went into systems i was working on vigil+ , Galaxy 500 etc so unless you have a good idea of what you are doing the manual might as well be written in double dutch. My collection of manuals goes back probably 15 years,( remember the omega 5)and i still get calls from friends in the trade .

ENGINEERING MANUALS ARE FOR ENGINEERS, if you want to do a DIY job buy a panel with both sets of instructions !

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Guest Simple Security

I myself being an engineer, normally leave the installation and user manuals with the user so they can keep them safe, but one thing I dont do is tell them the engineer code so they can play with the panel as much as they like but they cant change the engineer settings and if they require to change them then I gladly go there and change whatever they want, for a small fee of course as we are all here to make a living.

Leaving the engineer manual with the end user is not much hastle for me but if they lose it then they will not get another one from me as I always carry a spare in the van.

Thats my opinion but there you go.

Colin Ogden

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Guest pkh911

I totally agree with you, DO NOT give the customer the engineer manual, as you said it undermines the integrity of the system. When you read into the EN50131 standards it is the installer that decide the integrity of the system for grading purposes. Therefore in my eyes EN50131 is telling us NOT to part with the manual. Why dont manufacturers take a leaf out of Ademcos book where the galaxy is concerned, they do not supply a manual with the panel, they have to be purchased seperatley. Ademcos attitude is If you install Galaxy panels you know what you are doing and are a professional.

Regards

Phil

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Guest pkh911

Dave how do you become a trade member

Been in industry for 20 years, just found your forum and love helping out. If anybody needs info on Ademco panels EXCEPT Vista range you can pass my email on or point them in my direction.

Work in Republic of Ireland now, own a company here Sparks Security Systems do a lot of work in the north around Londonderry and Belfast as well as Dublin and drinking lots of the black stuff

Regards

Phil Hayes

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I think you have answered your own question, the engineer/install manual is designed for the person (whether it be a DIY'er or alarm engineer) who installed the system, its not designed for the end user...(unless they installed it themselves)

13704[/snapback]

I think this statement sums it up really. If you installed it and you know what you're doing you should have access to the manual. However providing INSTALLATION/ENGINEER manuals to customers who have a maintainance contract with someone is a bad idea. especially if it's your own customer!


If you don't know......ask.

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Guest RICHL
QUOTE(jpaul @ May 23 2004, 06:29 PM)

I think you have answered your own question, the engineer/install manual is designed for the person (whether it be a DIY'er or alarm engineer) who installed the system, its not designed for the end user...(unless they installed it themselves)

*

I think this statement sums it up really. If you installed it and you know what you're doing you should have access to the manual. However providing INSTALLATION/ENGINEER manuals to customers who have a maintainance contract with someone is a bad idea. especially if it's your own customer!

But then any piece of kit supplied with an engineer manual would be DIY kit. The way I see it Ademco have got it right and Gardtec and the rest need to do the same.

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Guest ratman

At the end of the day, its us (engineers) who are trained and have the technical ability to install / maintain security systems. Its about time we folowed americas example and only allowed state certified tradesmen to work on equipment. With so many badly installed and non maintained alarm systems out there its no wonder sirens are ignored.

So no, give the end user the user manual, thats all. Engineer codes are confidential, giving them out only compromises other systems.

Every one likes to have a dabble at diy, put painting and decorating doesnt wake people up at 5.00 in the morning.

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Guest
Every one likes to have a dabble at diy, put painting and decorating doesnt wake people up at 5.00 in the morning.

22074[/snapback]

It does when you stick your foot in a tin of paint!!

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Guest park.avenue

The end user will usually ask for manual if they feel certain areas of the info can be useful to them. They have paid for it and by law they are entitle to it. They are not asking to transfer the knowledge or experience. If they land in trouble you charge them to correct it.

As overall view is that there are few bad installers and when they finish they can only be found out by reading guide, reported to this forum, which is good for everybody.

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