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Engineer Manuals

Engineer Manuals  

758 members have voted

  1. 1. Engineer Manuals

    • Engineer--Provide them if Asked
      173
    • Engineer--Do not provide them at all
      163
    • User--Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s
      14
    • User--Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual
      267
    • Un-decided
      10


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Guest Peter James

Colin

You were correct about the Nacoss warning reference the paperwork in panels, and all of our engineers are aware that it could be a fire risk and keep the paperwork away from the hot bits. (common sense really)

Although there never has been (and Nacoss will back this statement up) any reported incidences of fires or smoke damage etc caused by paperwork left in panels.

Pete :)

Edited by Peter James

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Yes Linda please enquire as to you companies position regarding any Engineer information and legalities please.

I already know another major manufacturers stance on this subject, lets see if yours is simillar :)


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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HI Linda,

CQR's opinion would be helpful along with any other manufacturers out there who may be observing and not contributing!!

It is an issue that has various implications to the installer.

Colin.

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dont know if im right or wrong on this,but inever have & probably never will leave an engineers manual with a customer.

Just my personal opinion though.

:wacko::wacko:

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watching the manual requests over the last 6 months

they tend to be manly asking for "job on the side panels"

like ade ,a1 etc most of these had insaller insruction and user in the same book

i can't see a problem with these they don't want to pay for a skilled alarm eng.

and to be honest do you really want these as customers ???? :ph34r:

but as for eng. it sometimes hard to get a manual for something old (and most company only keep the most up to date stuff)

i would be handy to know which of us are or run alarm eng. compans (without giving to much away )

perhaps dave could sort something like this??

:wacko:

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All Forum users should take note ofthe above Discussion.

And Dale did you ever find how we stood legally..?

Can find the legal stuff out for you Wed, as im installing structured cabling into a solicitors, so will quickly ask one of em.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Guest dale

Well legally here goes:

Manuals are not public domain and are legally copyrighted by the respective parties (ie the manufacturers). This copyright lasts for 100 year from the date the first pulication was made (so it pretty much covers the entire lifecycle of any alarm system).

If we send alarm manuals to people or hold alarm manuals on a computer system this is breach of copyright as we are not allowed to reproduce in any way (including digital scanning) any of the manuls, unless we have the prior permission of the copyright holder.

Unfortunately just because a manufacturer puts the manual on there website this does not mean we can take the manual and distribute it without there permission, even though it would appear to be public domain, it isnt.

As for the advice/recomendations, if the advice is free then we are unlikely to get prosecuted. But we must have a disclaimer on the site, as if we get it wrong and we are telling people we are "proffesionals" then we may get into trouble.

My friend will take a look at the site later this afternoon to see if he can find any other legal issues we should be considering.

Dale

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BUMP.........Just thought I`d top this topic to make it easier for new members to find.


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Guest Edwards

My opinion is. If its a maintained system then do not give the user a engineers manual as they could cause problems for the maintenance company. but if its not maintained, its just installed then give them a copy as its there system and if they create probelms its there own fault, and will have to pay for it to be repaired.

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Guest RICHL

I cant see any reason at all why an end user should know engineer manuals exist or expect to have one. It all comes down to quality of service.

If an alteration needs to be done to the program this should be done by someone with training and experience, the details noted on a call form and then signed by both.

If you give a user an engineers manual it seems to me you are telling the customer to look after it themselves and not bother you.

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Guest kanabb

I am an electrician by trade and have just finished building my home. I bought and installed an aritech system. Installation was not a problem and neither was the initial set up. However i recieved no manual and as such am limited in what i can do ( ie inhibit a zone ). I think as long as the end user is not on a maintenance and monitoring contract they should be left the manuals. Qualified persons and i would consider myself such, should get all the info they need when they purchase a system. Most of the info for mine was removed from the box. I just had the bare bones to go with.

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The Aritech range of panels i would say is one of the more complex and professional range of panels and you tend to find you dont get the engineer manuals with them. There will be a few good reasons for that, the main one being the manual maybe around 40+ pages thick and to provide one with every panel would'nt be cost effective.

Also the manuals will be issued to security companies by the manufactures as they need them, and they will most likely pay for them. No doubt if you contacted Aritech they would let you have one and probably charge you for the pleasure also. I would agree that you are a competent person but most people aint and you would'nt suggest any of your clients open up the sockets or consumer unit and try changing things.

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Any more views on this Subject, seems the result of the poll has changed somewhat..

Engineer-----Provide them if Asked [ 22 ] [39.29%]

Engineer-----Do not provide them at all [ 15 ] [26.79%]

User----------Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s [ 2 ] [3.57%]

User----------Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual [ 15 ] [26.79%]

Un-decided -[ 2 ] [3.57%]

Those in favour now equals almost 70%....?


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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I feel that if someone felt compotent enough to carry out the small change and new the potential risks involved then it would be okay for them to receive the manual.

Some distributors even offer them on their websites.

Dave

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It all depends on whether their Are there any manufacturers that wont try to sue me if i offer this service.


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Yeah Pete all your points are valid, and to be honest I doubt i`d risk another legal threat by letting the general public have access to the manuals.

What prompted me looking at this post again was an email I received today of which below is an excert,

the decision an reasoning to withdraw engineer manuals defeats the freedom of information offered by the internet and depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area
and this was from a senior person high up in a rather large installation company.....

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Guest dale

Protect your own back Dave, as will the guy from the big multinational pay your legal costs should you be sued under copyright infringment?

Dale

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Guest dale

Plus don't forget, everyone of the members of public are going to say "Its my alarm - I should have a manual" as they dont understand the reasons why we need to protect these manuals from both incompetant medling end users and theives wishing to cercumvent systems. The industry needs to keep some things private, not only to protect our good names, but to protect our customers. If the manuals are freely available, then a) everybody would have a go at trying to fix a security system, creating more cowboys B) theives with a bit of intelligence would be able to work out how to shut an alarm off c) the industry would be blighted by false alarms and would look unprofessional.

My two pence worth.

Dale

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I agree with Pete, the guys wrong, if the manuals are available on the manufacturers site then we point them in that direction. If we openly give them out and we are asking for trouble.

Engineers manuals only to the trade. Most manufacturers dont sell to the public, so having access to an engineer manual is not very likely.

As far as that guy is concerned, if the manuals are as accessable on the net as he reckons, then there no problem in us not providing them. I have said it before "do you get the workshop manual when you buy a car" of course not.

Colin.

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Hmmmmm....

As an end-user I'm (predictably many of you in-the-trade professionals will say) going to disagree with some of the points made. I'm talking in the context of smaller installations, e.g. domestic. No-one in their right mind would expect an amateur to reprogram or fix a large commercial system.

Firstly, it looks as if some of the comments are getting polarised to one extreme or the other. That's probably not going to be helpful as it's likely to alienate people from positive contributions to the debate. And it's beginning to sound a bit like restraint of trade.

Secondly, the comparison to cars is rather spurious. The average car is many orders of magnitude more complex than a domestic alarm. And it can easily kill if not maintained properly (Yes, I know about mains voltages in alarms!) but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent) and do a lot yourself.

Thirdly, given the huge range of systems available, what opportunistic burglar is going to bother learning all the tricks necessary to defeat a myriad of systems. If He's really determined to get in somewhere he'll research the premises and system and take time to plan, and making manuals difficult for users to obtain won't make any difference.

The user manuals only go so far, and the installation manual (again limited) can give much useful help to a "thinking" user. Beyond that you need proper training of course. Please don't dismiss out-of-the-trade as unthinking incompetents - I know you don't really, the existence of this forum shows that and the huge amount of help being given to people like me.

My view is simple - the engineering manual is part of the equipment. It should be kept (securely if appropriate) by the user. If necessary it should have warnings about the consequences of changes made by untrained persons. But at least it will be there for the user to look at (and probably decide he needs professional help) and also it will be there for you when you get called out to a new client you have no records of.

I might add that the installers left all the manuals for my gas cooker, hob, etc. and I'm not Corgi-registered and have no intention of doing anything to them, but I can at least understand the nature of some problems and have them for reference by a professional if I need one.

As for cars; well I have a Ford and an Audi and have the workshop manuals for both on CD and a laptop that I can plug into the OBD sockets. I don't do major work on either, but I can identify problems and save a lot of time and effort at the garage.

OK that's my 10 cents worth, intended to be constructive so don't take anything personally.

Andrew

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(not counting the respect I have for you of course)  :lol:

If only there wasn`t a Smilie on the end of that Statement. Thanks Pete :)

But truthfully I do not have any intention of letting the general public or end user any access to the manual collection. It is now and will always be only available to those members who have proven themselves to be in the trade.

I just thought i`d post that excert from an email i received after seeing how much the POLL result had changed. I do like to try and please everyone who visits this site, and this bit "depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area" of his email bugged me....


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Guest Gelert

as an end user, my contract is up at the end of the year but i was not suppied with a manual, when my contract ends i am sure i will not be given the manual even if i ask for one as they will want me to renew the contract

so my question is this, can i demand the manual and if not supplied what is my next course of action?

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Guest dale

If you demanded the install manual from me, my answer would be to contact the manufacturer as the installation manual is for the "INSTALLER", so there is no reason why they are obliged to give it to you. With some high end systems, manuals dont come with the install pack, as its too large, so you have to order it seperately from the manufacturer.

As many have argued, and I agree with this point "Do you get the engineering manual for your car?", nope... "can you demand an engineering manual from the manufacturer?", ermm. nope as they will certainly laugh at you and tell you where to go. Its the same with PC's, do you get the source code to office 2000 so u can tweak it and change it to how you want it....I think not!

Dale

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good point dale


Any comments / opinions posted are my opinion only and do not represent those of my employer or Company

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Intruder alarms are household devices that are quite unique in my opinion. If your washing machine, TV, computer, car, or any other household item breaks down, the user has the opportunity to remedy the problem either immediately or many months in the future. The point being, the end user doesn't have to have to fix the fault immediately upon the fault emerging and be on the spot to have money ready to pay someone in the know, to fix the problem now due to it disturbing the neighbours.

Many older alarms that were installed with SAB's that have no cut-off circuitry can hold their users to ransom if a fault develops as theres potential of a SAB unit sounding for hours as the onboard nicad discharges. Although getting less likely as the years go on due to the implementation of noise pollution regulations, many customers in this situation have no choice but to raise the cash for an engineer to call and rectify the fault immediately, or try to tolerate the noise and possible aggrovation from neighbours, especially during night hours.

Of course, users who have alarms under service agreement can have a call within 4 hours to fix the problem but what about those who are not? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users the information to learn how to at least silence the alarm themselves? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users an installation manual in anticipation of such a fault with their alarm?

Theres a valid reason why users should have access to their installation manual. But what about all your loyal customers who pay each and every year your service charge? Would it be a fair deal to give someone this information when he thinks his domestic security doesn't warrant a professional touch? Would it be also fair to hand out technical information to this person giving him the means to compromise all of your similarly installed systems of your loyal customers if opportunities arise?

You maintain their alarm. You look after them. You give out possible sensitive documentation that can compromise your loyal customers alarm to someone who feels that the security of their premises is better in their own hands rather than yours, the alarm company.

I'm all for letting joe public having the best deal but could you guarantee that such requested information was being used for personal means?

Sorry. I've gone on a bit there. I think installation manuals shouldn't be handed out to the public. A possible compromise would be say 5 years after the requested control equipment has been removed from production by their manufacturers. But with many manufacturers using a standard menu tree across their range, I'm sure even discontinued manuals will contain information thats relevent to current equipment available including the more higher end units.

Tony


ACE.gif

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