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Service Engineer

Engineer Manuals

Engineer Manuals  

758 members have voted

  1. 1. Engineer Manuals

    • Engineer--Provide them if Asked
      173
    • Engineer--Do not provide them at all
      163
    • User--Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s
      14
    • User--Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual
      267
    • Un-decided
      10


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Guest RICHL
The end user will usually ask for manual if they feel certain areas of the info can be useful to them. They have paid for it and by law they are entitle to it. They are not asking to transfer the knowledge or experience. If they land in trouble you charge them to correct it.

Absolute rubbish! The end user has payed for a security system, if they want to engineer it themselves they should install it themselves.

If they knew the facts Im sure most alarm users would prefer the nitty gritty to be kept out of the public domain.

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Guest dale

By law they are not entitled to it, as engineers we purchase systems, and sell the systems to clients... we dont sell them the technical manuals, much in the same way as radio rentals used to buy lots of TV's and get the engineering guides for TV's but did I (as a consumer) ever get the engineering guide.... could I say to Sony im entitled to the engineering manual for my TV? Nope... cause its their intellectual property and im entitled to use it not play with its insides. And any lawyer in the country will tell you that you are not entitled to priveldiged information that could be used to inhibited or circumvent security systems or processes.

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Guest Perditor

So if a person says I want the engineer manual or I will take my business elsewhere, do you say no and lose the sale?

(I know its an unlikely scenario, just thought it would be a good gauge of how strongly people feel on this point, give them the manual or lose the sale?)

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Guest Peter James
So if a person says I want the engineer manual or I will take my business elsewhere, do you say no and lose the sale?

(I know its an unlikely scenario, just thought it would be a good gauge of how strongly people feel on this point, give them the manual or lose the sale?)

23051[/snapback]

I would lose the sale, I want customers that will pay a fair price for a security system that will work when its supposed to and not activate when its not supposed to, I dont want customers that are just after the cheapest deal (they never want to pay for anything) None of my customers have ever asked for the instalation manual, but there again A: we sell security systems not manuals.

B: Manufactures obviosly believe that end users should not be given engineering information, as it is much cheaper to produce one manual than it is two. and C: Security systems would not be secure if engineering manuals were available to all and sundry.

I never got an installation manual on the cashpoint machine when I got my cashpoint card do you think I should complain to the bank?

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Guest RICHL

I would choose not to do business with them. It's a scenario which creates too many gray areas of doubt and blame in the event of a system fault or failure.

The only compromise is to fit a DIY system like an Accenta and not guarantee it and that's something I wouldnt want to do.

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I'm in agreement with Pete and Richl on this, The end user buys the system, not the installation instructions, they are for the engineer, hence the name ENGINEERING manual....

and Yes, I'd rather loose the sale for the same reasons stated by pete...

Regards

Bellman


Service Engineer and all round nice bloke :-)

The views above are mine and NOT those of my employer.

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Guest double0seven

hi all,

in 95% of cases instructions/manuals are easy to come by but it is the 5% that is the problem in most case's you just ring your installer and they will help you,BUT the other 5% are the manufactures/installers who dont dennie you your manuals/instructions but charge you for it...and these companies and installers need to be weeded out as this isnt a saftey bit but sales pitch........also when u buy a bike from k mart you get instuctions how to put it together..when u get a clock it tells you how to set the time...tell me why you would have to get a service man out to program your fully wireless system that should of had its manuals with it when you got it anyway......i say a big thank you to the rouge installer that just cost me $200au/d on haveing to get fitter out to change my alarm in to my new house........as for a service fee $90 au/d just for things i could of done my self

..........shane..........

Edited by double0seven

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Guest RICHL

if your wireless alarm was a DIY then it should have had its manuals.

If its a pro one (and Im not familiar with the regs in oz) then it seems fine to me that you have to pay to have it moved and set up for your new house. Afterall, the installer is providing a service.

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Guest Brushpusher

Just to add my thoughts.

I project manage a lot of major fire alarm projects and emergency voice systems. As part of these contracts we are required to provide full information in the form of an Operation & Maintainance manual.

Not only does it have to contain all aspects of programming, but access codes too. In addition there are as installed drawings showing the cable routes etc.

This manual is then usually left on site with the end user. Whilst it may not be an intruder system, I think an L1 fire system should be left to us as professionals.

One of my customers recently employed a third party to work on an emergency voice evacuation system. The guys used our manuals to reprogram an aspect of the system. Unfortunately they got it wrong. When the system was tested the following week, the system didn't work.

I hate to think what would have happened if there had been an incident and the buildings required evacuation.

When I submit a manual at the end of a job, I usually omit the engineer programming section, only to be pulled up by the client who insists upon it.

As we don't get final payment until the manual is approved and produced I am left with little choice.

Tony.

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Guest livewire
By law they are not entitled to it, as engineers we purchase systems, and sell the systems to clients... we dont sell them the technical manuals, much in the same way as radio rentals used to buy lots of TV's and get the engineering guides for TV's but did I (as a consumer) ever get the engineering guide.... could I say to Sony im entitled to the engineering manual for my TV? Nope... cause its their intellectual property and im entitled to use it not play with its insides. And any lawyer in the country will tell you that you are not entitled to priveldiged information that could be used to inhibited or circumvent security systems or processes.

22189[/snapback]

IMHO, this is a grey area.

Radio or TV , you buy and it works straight out of the box, user manual covers all, low maintenance too, with security system it's different.

If I was to purchase a security system from a security company I would definitely insist on having all manuals including the engineering one (provided that I was the owner of the equipment not the contracted company). This is due to the fact that I might choose (whatever the reason) to contract a different company in the future and they might ask for these manuals / or for instance I might not require monitoring facility ( ie. someone always at home, but still set the alarm during the night).

If you are saying that revealing engineer's manuals to forum members when asked for is a compromise of security systems then let's take a real example here:

How secure is an Galaxy panel if you can buy the same one (from Ebay, ok, fair enough the rev and s/w might be an older version sometimes) which is DD243 compliant for £10 - £50 including the engineers manual?

This gear is normally sold by security installers (or ex security installers rather) who have access to manufacturers privileged web site areas and will send you eng pdf manual just to make that sale!

This forum's highest number of people logged on at the same time was 76 so we are not talking 1000's here,don' t see the reason why the manuals should not be sent to members if asked for...this used to be the norm in the past...

As someone else said manual is just a manual, as you know it takes more than having the manual to be able to install the system.

Just my opinion, I am sure some people will not agree, though.

rgds :)

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Guest livewire

Pete, I meant the same thing here

Just because you can read the manual does not qualify you to install alarms!

As someone else said manual is just a manual, as you know it takes more than having the manual to be able to install the system.

Anyway, it looks we have hot topic here and the pool results are fairly equal atm. :rolleyes:

rgds

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Guest

My opinion is that engineer and programming manuals are not for endusers. They don't have any need for them since they are not professional "alarm engineers".

Don't know the law in GB but here enduser has a right to get them since he/she owns the system. This is also with installer/engineer and master code. Practically we do not give those codes or manuals for enduser. If they want them we will ask for "Release of guarantee" agreement where it is stated that enduser himself takes responsibility of the system under any circumstances since we can't anyhow control what chances are made in to the system/programming.

Endusers have understod that if they have access to those codes they can't anyhow prove that they didn't make the system/programming faulty and has left the codes/manuals in to our possession only.

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we will ask for "Release of guarantee" agreement
That makes a lot of sense Georg. I actually reckon if that were in force over here a lot of end users would NOT take the risk.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Guest Adrian

B) The oricle (my wife) says NO, customers should not have the enginneer manuel. ;)

Adrian

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well "That`s that" sorted then ..?

:unsure:


........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Manuals seems like touchy subject. One of the many reasons I can't wait unti I'm in the trade myself :D I wonder how I'll get on :rolleyes:


Trade Member

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I can't wait unti I'm in the trade myself

You poor misguided fool :D


Mark Hawks

Ex BT Openreach Field Service

Now Self employed telecom and data engineer  www.mphtelecom.co.uk 

Also back doing sub contract work in the security industry.

Retained firefighter Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue

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I've followed this dabate with interest, and have read all of the arguments put forwards by installers for engineer manuals to be unavailable to end-users. It increases security, stops end-users tampering with their systems, and cuts down on false alarms.

Can I ask if any installers who have installed or who are maintaining their home or business alarm systems themselves, have arranged a take-over visit from an independent local company, and have had their panels locked with an engineer code unknown to them?

If not then why not? Don't you want to have the benefits as well?

Allso

Edited by Allso

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I'm having a good question day today - must have too much time on my hands!

So I've got another question for those security-conscious installers reading.

Why should an installer working for the "Tin Can and Flat Battery Alarm Co. Ltd.", located in the sleepy village of Upper Nowhere, have easy access to the full engineering manuals for the new "Milky Way Infinite Zone Extra High Security 1.6GTi Turbo" alarm panel when his company only ever install the "Standard Panel" (produced by Bogg & Son Ltd.), and no-one in the Greater Upper Nowhere area will ever have the new Milky Way panel fitted?

From a security point of, he shouldn't, as he doesn't need the information to carry out his job.

If you believe engineer manual access should be restricted, where will you draw the line? B)

Allso

Edited by Allso

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Guest RICHL

Engineer access should be restricted to the panels which they are expected to work on. Simple really.

Regarding your question above - why have a dog and bark yourself?!

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Guest

As far as I am concerned - I wont supply engineer manuals whith a new install due to the fact the system comes with a 12 month waranty as standard - If the punter messed with the panel this would invalidate the warranty.

The manual is not normally required as the system should have been properly specd and configd in the first place and would have been If we installed it.

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Can I ask if any installers who have installed or who are maintaining their home or business alarm systems themselves, have arranged a take-over visit from an independent local company, and have had their panels locked with an engineer code unknown to them?

31547[/snapback]

The point I was trying to make, and didn't make very well, is that installers always have access to the full manuals for their own panels, so they never experience the frustration that some users feel when they can't get hold of one.

Only by having their own panels locked could an installer fully empathise with users!!

Somehow I knew that you wouldn't all be rushing to have your panels taken over!!

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....what makes you think we would tamper with our own system where we shouldnt?

Pete

31589[/snapback]

Exactly! - what makes you think every user with an engineer manual would tamper with their own alarm when they shouldn't? B)

You'll probably say "my experience", and I can't argue with that. But shouldn't trust between user and installer extend both ways.

I have the installation manuals for my alarm, but not the engineering code, and I don't tamper with my system. I did get an undertaking from the company that they would reset the engineer code to one of my choosing should I decide to change to another company in the future. I asked them for this before I sent the cheque (users note that this is a good time to ask!!). This compromise is fine with me. As a result I don't feel totally locked into their services, and at the same time my security isn't compromised.

My last alarm company went out of business overnight. The first I knew of it was when I rang them to arrange some extra sensors and got "this number is not recognised". I had no engineer manual or code, and none of the three companies I asked would take my panel over (DA Abacus 8ABI - put in less than 6 years before), so I had to have the expense of a whole new panel :( - hence my rather strong views on this issue.

Allso

Edited by Allso

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Allso raises an interesting point there; users protecting themselves against the failure of the alarm company that holds the master codes and manuals for their system.

In my business (IT) there is a process of "escrow" used, with a third party holding critical information that is released when the supplier defaults or goes out of business. This is in order that the user can continue to do what they would expect to do (within reason) with the software (it is usually applied to software) they have bought or licensed.

Is there any similar scheme run by a trade body or one of the inspectorates? Or could there be? Maybe it should be standard in all "good" contracts? :wub:

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