Door contacts or PIR's

[Guest Chewie]

Peter do you know if there are any 360 degree dt pir's on the market

[Guest]

Sorry, but you've just convinced me that you shouldn't be doing the job.

If you're refurbing the place then their will be no cables on show anywhere. It's good practice to fit a door contact on the entry\exit door and you are at an ideal stage to do the whole job without having one cable on show.

If you think putting in a contact is extra work, then it's definitely time to call someone in.

And, this isn't a DIY forum as such, it's a DIY section on a professionals site. Most of the people giving you advice do nothing all day but fit\maintain alarms.

[Guest Chewie]

Fine you're entitled to your opinion. But can you tell me how you would fit a door contact without actually doing the work

I would need to get the floor up to run the cable from the panel to the contact and drop the cable down behind the coving in the plaster to the contact on the door.

If eveyone thinks that I need a contact on this door and a PIR is not adequate protection then that is what I will do. But it is certainly extra work.

You only learn from asking questions, what may seem obvious to you is not so obvious to a newbie. We were all at this stage once.

[Guest Peter James]

You would have to use a surface contact, and if your able to chase the wall I would chase to the frame drill a hole and bring the cable through it.

The reasoning behind the Pro suggestion is not because they will nec hide the cables better , more the fact that a pro has the experience and knowledge of what you can and cant do.

Its easy to make a mistake installing an alarm system that will cause you greif to put right , the pir pointing at the door is a good example.

Without seeing your property, (and every property is different ) it is difficult to advise on everything.

A wise man once said to me " With DIY projects if you can earn in a day as much or mre than it costs to get a pro to do then get a pro to do it" and if you think about it it makes sense.

I dont think it would be copping out, you're obviosly very intelligent and probably have a trade or proffesion of some description under your belt.

Of course we are happy to help you as much as we can (thats why we,re here) but I would at least suggest you get the system looked over by a pro at the end.

Pete

[Guest Chewie]

Thanks again Peter, perhaps I could post a schematic with proposed component positions, and you or one of your peers could give it the once over.

[Guest Peter James]

360 dt's are available but Wakefield doesnt use them unless its unavoidable (and it is usually avoidable).

Pete

[Guest IM_Alarms]

I agree with Peter, for a domestic you shouldn't need a 360. We would only use them for commercial with large areas and lots of stock / display movements. But if you do need one then Scantronic 450's are good Scantronic 450

Like peter said run your door contact cable to the frame, then use the box section of the frame to run up to the contact. It only takes two small holes, one under the contact and one at carpet level.

[Guest Chewie]

Thanks for everyones advise, I really appreciate it. I just knocked up this floorplan and would welcome any constructive criticism.

http://www.videohelp.com/~craigtucker/house/house_plan.swf

[Guest Chewie]

Does it matter whre the contact is on the door, I will be coming down from the ceiling so can the contact be at the top of the door.

[norman]

I personally would contact both garage doors instead of the 360, as it appears to have no windows, just make sure you use a heavy duty contact/roller shutter contact to the up & over door.

It doesn't matter whereabouts the contact's go on the frame top would be OK but do tend to be more visible.

I would also put a shock sensor on the patio and rear garage doors as these are more susceptible to attack.

Also due to the positioning of the PIR's I would make sure they have white light filtering for the sunlight through the window's. ( I would have specified they go on the window wall looking in!)

1 speaker would suffice, possibly the second one upstairs but remember the annoyance of any chime at night if you have children or a moaning wife!

Oh and I would also fit a bigger window to the living room.

[amateurandy]

If I remember correctly this job was to be done with an ADE Optima or Accenta G3 which only has 8 zones and isn't expandable.

Given the size of house a bigger/expandable panel might be better?

[Guest Chewie]

Thanks Norman. OK, if I use 2 contacts rather than a PIR in the garage can they both go on the same zone. I only have an 8 channel panel. Can the shock sensors go on the same zone as the contacts or do they need to be seperate. Is the garage then not still at risk from someone coming through the glass and not opening the door.

The PIRs can be positioned anywhere, if it is better to put them on the window walls then that can be done no problem.

As for the window in the living room, yea its pretty wierd, very narrow but full length from floor to ceiling.

[norman]

You can use up to ten contacts on one zone,although this is NOT recommended as it makes fault finding a nightmare, two would be acceptable though if upgrading the control is out of the question.

You may put a shock and contact on the same circuit but enable the shock for latching (stays lit upon activation)

The garage door at the rear of your house appears to be at higher risk, and a shock sensor should detect attack (someone breaking the panel) before entry is gained.

If it's no hardship then it is good practice to point the PIR's away from any sudden probable heat/light source. (Mr sun popping out from behind a cloud!)

I can live with the window.

[Guest Peter James]

Is the study and the diner flat roof?

[Guest Chewie]

No, the study and dining room are single story, but it is a proper pitched tiled roof.

Why do you ask ?

The only reason I had the PIR's pointing the way they were was so they were pointing at possible access points. But if this is not good practice due to false activations then they can be located elsewhere.

[breff]

Pete asks because it makes the rooms above the living room more vulnerable.

[Guest Chewie]

Ah right.

OK concerning the PIR and the door contact in the hall.

If I have a door contact set as the main entry zone with a delay to enable me to dissarm the alarm when entering the house I can then have the PIR in the hall set to trigger an alarm immediately.

What about when coming down the stairs in the morning though ?, this would trigger an alarm before I could dissable it. So should I have another RKP on the landing upstairs which allows me to arm and disarm the alarm when going to bed at night and getting up in the morning.

[amateurandy]

You'll need to have a separate program for night time and set the alarm appropriately.

Full set - door is timed for entry/exit, hall PIR time inhibited

Night - hall PIR is timed. Door maybe timed if you have people out who come home late after alarm is set (e.g. teenagers!)

Your ADE engineering manual explains how to do it and gives some examples.

If you have a landing PIR as well that will need to be omitted in the night program.

The full alarm set you can probably do with the default program if the front door is zone 1 and the hall PIR zone 2.

Then you've got to think about the garage and protecting that maybe if the house is occupied?

[antinode]

What about a panic button or two? Most systems I've seen have at least a bedroom PA, and maybe one in the hall. It's not a requirement, but it's a useful addition if you can accomodate one. It sounds like you need a slightly bigger panel to me. Maybe take a look at some of the Menvier panels? You can buy "Nodes" which give you another 8 zones. Most manufacturers have expandable panels except ADE (I think?)

EDIT: Maybe an upstairs RKP for night setting? Just a suggestion...

[amateurandy]

The panel he's using has a dedicated PA connection in addition to the 8 zones, so it can be added easily.

And the kepad (like most others I suspect) has a PA function too.

[Guest Chewie]

Problem is I have already bought the optima panel and modified it so I can use my housesafe smoke alarms to trigger the fire alarm input on the panel. I have also fitted the keypad in the hall to go with the optima and bought the informa speech dialler.

I suppose I could return the speech dialler as it is still in the box but I could not return the panel or keypad.

Do the PA's require their own zone. I would not want to fit one in the bedroom now because it is all nicely decorated, but I could put one in the hall and one on the landing just outside the bedroom door.

[Guest Chewie]

Ah you answered my question andy so I could use the PAs without taking up another zone. I assume thet can be wired in series like the door contacts.

[Guest Chewie]

EDIT: Maybe an upstairs RKP for night setting? Just a suggestion...

38669[/snapback]

Is this a standard recognized practice, because I have thought of this, see my earlier post. But did not know if it could compromise the security with no sensor watching the upstairs RKP.

[antinode]

Is this a standard recognized practice, because I have thought of this, see my earlier post.  But did not know if it could compromise the security with no sensor watching the upstairs RKP.

38674[/snapback]

Most panels (including the Optima) tamper if a few unsucessful attempts to guess the code are made, which generates a full alarm (internal and external sounders and your dialer) if that alarm is set. If you have it in the master bedroom or on the landing with a Landing PIR, you should be fine. You'll probably need some kind of upstairs protection anyway because of the sloped roof on your extension.

[Guest]

Well, you know I think this job's a bit big for you but......

If there's access to the rooms above the living room these need protection.

I'd also add a PIR and RKP to the landing.

Move the extension speaker from the living room to the landing, the one in the hall will be adequately loud for downstairs, (and probably upstairs too).

Add the contacts to the front and rear garage doors, and contact the back door while you're at it.

Use a bigger panel, the Optima's no good for a job of this size, there's too much doubling up going on.

I notice all (most) the PIR's are facing windows, I'd move them into position that they're not.