matthew.brough Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 personally i like them, there are many that systems out there that are not connected for Police attendance, so it is not a requirement. it is very convenient and removes a lot of the user panic, it identifies the user in the log and that greatly aids any fault finding because you know who to ask questions of and check on their procedures. it saves wear on the keypads, and can't be 'surfed' so ideal for kids who use their systems in front of their mates. against them is the risk of loss with home keys especially when a bag is stolen, info about the address is likely to be in a diary or mobile leaving that home and system vulnerable, but then people will write down codes in the strangest of places - even on the keypad with indelible pens . best option for high security is using fob and code, but most users soon get bored doing that after the initial 'gadget' novelty period wears off. I'd love the high security option of pin and prox, but the standards do not allow its use. www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 hw often do you see 5 insurance approved locks and 2 bolts on leading edge - 2 rubbish hinges and no hing pins on the other edge lol! If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubit Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I'd love the high security option of pin and prox, but the standards do not allow its use. And yet, if i recall correctly, pin+prox is a requirement if setting/unsetting the intruder via the Access Control System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergibbons Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 With the acpo policy being what it is there isn't much if a choice but to like them! Matt - sorry - I'm really not up on the non-technical standards side of things. Do ACPO now insist (or is it strongly advise?) that prox tags are used? I must confess the user experience never came into my thought process. I bought kit based on our engineer experience with it. I think that's why iOS was so popular as the user experience was so good. In the alarm world I'd say there is a certain amount of the systems are designed by engineers for engineers and that the user is a small part of the thought process with a couple of notable exceptions. It's interesting isn't it? Alarms feel dated to me. 2x16 char vacuum fluorescent displays? Complex multi-level menus identified by number? It's like a video recorder from 1988. Some of the UDL software as well... wow. Windows 3.1 days. It all seems to work though. hw often do you see 5 insurance approved locks and 2 bolts on leading edge - 2 rubbish hinges and no hing pins on the other edge lol! Or a door with weak panels or a frame that isn't anchored properly. I had a friend in a new build who actually had his UPVC door and frame come completely free. I have a blog, some of which is about alarm security and reverse engineering:http://cybergibbons.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I'd love the high security option of pin and prox, but the standards do not allow its use. i have to admit i did not know of that, seems odd as many if not all compliant EN panels offer it. if we are meant to be inter-compatible in Europe then i'm curious as to the reasoning f At that recent Risco demo they showed a non-display keypad used externally by the front door for the new Agility 3, Rep said in one country (can't remember which) it is mandatory. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 i recently discovered in a warehouse, a marked fire exit door that led into a 'sealed' h&m customs bonded cage, if thats not 'funny' enough the crash bar latch did not line up anywhere close with the lock keep to secure it. it is contacted and i tested it as working but not 24 hour, as far as anyone knows it has been like it for many many years but has never tripped the alarm. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew.brough Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The software can be indeed archaic. We have had to build virtual machines of old operating systems (all 32 bit of course) to cope with some downloader software. The ACPO policy is basically the rules under what the police will accept an alarm call. There are 4 methods of unsetting in these rules. 6.4.3 Prevention of entry to the supervised premises before all means of intruder alarm confirmation have been disabled We like this method a lot. In simple terms it is maglock the entry door and put the reader outside. This stops someone setting the alarm off by entering when it is set and also means no vulnerable entry route. All zones are normal intruder zones and can create a confirmed alarm. 6.4.4 Opening the initial entry door disables all means of intruder alarm confirmation Not very sensible and not used commonly 6.4.5 Completion of unsetting using a digital key Most common, prox keypad in other words but this can create massive vulnerabilities because of the entry route and suppression of signals to the ARC. 6.4.6 Unsetting carried out in conjunction with an alarm receiving centre (ARC) Very rare i have to admit i did not know of that, seems odd as many if not all compliant EN panels offer it. if we are meant to be inter-compatible in Europe then i'm curious as to the reasoning fAt that recent Risco demo they showed a non-display keypad used externally by the front door for the new Agility 3, Rep said in one country (can't remember which) it is mandatory. Thats because it is an acpo requirement, not a EN one. Unsetting should be capable of being achieved by means of a singlemanual action using a digital key and a digital key reader www.securitywarehouse.co.uk/catalog/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergibbons Posted May 13, 2013 Author Share Posted May 13, 2013 Interesting. I've only had a quick look at the prox features on the panels I have. I have a blog, some of which is about alarm security and reverse engineering:http://cybergibbons.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The software can be indeed archaic. We have had to build virtual machines of old operating systems (all 32 bit of course) to cope with some downloader software. The ACPO policy is basically the rules under what the police will accept an alarm call. There are 4 methods of unsetting in these rules. 6.4.3 Prevention of entry to the supervised premises before allmeans of intruder alarm confirmation have been disabled We like this method a lot. In simple terms it is maglock the entry door and put the reader outside. This stops someone setting the alarm off by entering when it is set and also means no vulnerable entry route. All zones are normal intruder zones and can create a confirmed alarm. 6.4.4 Opening the initial entry door disables all means of intruder alarm confirmation Not very sensible and not used commonly 6.4.5 Completion of unsetting using a digital key Most common, prox keypad in other words but this can create massive vulnerabilities because of the entry route and suppression of signals to the ARC. 6.4.6 Unsetting carried out in conjunction with an alarm receiving centre (ARC) Very rare Thats because it is an acpo requirement, not a EN one. Unsetting should be capable of being achieved by means of a single manual action using a digital key and a digital key reader Thanks matt - i appreiated it's an APCO policy, given EN which part of it is consistany through Europe instalation, what the reason why they ban what is a lowering of security, an aspect, that many upper risk level Grade 2, 3 and 4 would find of bennifit. Interesting. I've only had a quick look at the prox features on the panels I have. Risco call it 'High Security Mode', option is in the same programming as 4 or 6 digit code length iirc If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 imho 4.6.3 is ok for commercial but less liked aesthetically on domestics due to even the smaller mini mags appearance. other problem is part sets, because if that feature an emx is required. not many decor's can match in a glass break, even if you use the white ones. 6.4.4 agreed, but with some dozy users - no option, might be why its there? . 6.4.5 used to be very popular, it was called 'return path signalling'. used especially for jewellers, furriers and chain stores. key-holder sets, but then waits for ARC to complete which silences the exit tone, for which the key-holder waits for before leaving. on entry which had to be within a pre-agreed time window, key holder switches off, again entry notification confirmed by the entry bleep ceasing as ARC acknowledged it. Some key-holders would then get a phone call from the ARC, and asked for a code to make sure they had not been compromised by a criminal waiting for them to arrive. If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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