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As i said earlier this is to big for a discussion on a forum to many ideas too much in put with to many views.

What appears to be coming through is a trade body is required not an inspectorate we have this in electrical contracting where the NICEIC is our inspectorate and the ECA is our trade body. Both these organisations make an impact on standards. As I have said to many issues.

Jim Torrance helped launch the GMAA I went to the first meeting “put your name down & a fiver in the box and your now a member” one company was asked to leave the room, the rest were members (I wasted £5 and left the room voluntarily). NSI has written to all its installers re: Part P. They have also written to installers and made it clear they will no longer tolerate companies that do the minimum and will start to sort them out. Like them or loathe them they are the most professional of bodies.

With regard to being counted I have offered to sue Optex and asked NSI to defend my position. I expected to loose but this would settle the argument and therefore I win a war by loosing a battle.

Jef

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If NSI or SSIAB had the same presidence as CORGI does to gas we wouldnt be in the shape we,re in now.

21159[/snapback]

Peter, I shudder to think what would happen.... :no::no::no:

We all want our industry to be a better, more reliable, more profitable entity, but what the inspectorates are blind to is that little fact that paperwok cost money.

Statistics cost money to produce, and all of it can be manipulated to suit the cause its written for!

On one of our security sites, a sparky has installed a fire alarm and it has been signed off as being correct and compliant. If we had installed it under the nacoss gold banner it would have been a reinspection if we hadnt been struck off! The sound calculations obviously havent been done as there arent enough sounders and is not compliant with the disability discrimination act...

We didnt get the job by about 20k... the customer has the neccessary paperwork to say its compliant....

James

TSS

Communication is "A question asked, and an Opinion given." I offer mine to help you with yours.

Statements I make are my personal views only at the time they are posted, if I offend you sorry, must be taken in context and do not neccesarily represent those of my employer.

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if your inspectorate wont adapt when they have had years to do so, do you really think that they have the installers best interests in mind.

Inspectorates forget that

they are there purley because of their membership, if there was no membership then there would be no Inspectorate.

Inspectorates need to adapt and change to meet the needs of their members,  not simply to meet the salary needs of the directors, managers and support staff.

Hear Hear

TSS

Communication is "A question asked, and an Opinion given." I offer mine to help you with yours.

Statements I make are my personal views only at the time they are posted, if I offend you sorry, must be taken in context and do not neccesarily represent those of my employer.

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Petitions are only as effective as the age of the issue, our industry has to evolve to be able to stay in touch with reality, a pettition would not allow you to do this.
Perhaps not Colin, but as a first line of getting your points accross there`s no better way.
The "Installer Network" does not intend to set itself up as a an "Inpectorate" the intention is that the Network will become a voice within our industry that engineers and compnies will be members of.
Their are already many powerful voices in our Industry, what makes you think that the voice of your "Installer Network" will be any louder than the rest.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Petitions are only as effective as the age of the issue, our industry has to evolve to be able to stay in touch with reality, a pettition would not allow you to do this.

Perhaps not Colin, but as a first line of getting your points accross there`s no better way.

Probably Dave, but realistically how many pettitions would it take to sort out our industry and the logistics of petition would be a nightmare.

The "Installer Network" does not intend to set itself up as a an "Inpectorate" the intention is that the Network will become a voice within our industry that engineers and compnies will be members of.

Their are already many powerful voices in our Industry, what makes you think that the voice of your "Installer Network" will be any louder than the rest.

Yes there are lots of powerful voices in our industry, but how many actually represent the installer?

And as with most things in life, if we dont try we will never know, installers can choose to be with the "Installer Network" or not. One thing is for certain the network members opinions will be heard.

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Dave, I will be posting full details of the network soon, the founder members are finalising the initial details and want to ensure that any installer who does wish to join the new network can get a fair and correct view of what we want to achieve.

Colin.

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sounds like a cartel to me and you may get a lot of backstabbing..were all competiters after all.....the bottom line is the industry needs to be more professional full stop,the customers are to blame,there quite happy with the one man and his van brigade with 'i do anything ltd on the side of his van' as opposed to the large and small installers who invest a lot of money in cars,uniform,paperwork etc..just coz your small doesnt mean you cant act big..i would stop diy stores selling s**t gear,suppliers should only supply to those who are qualified,not just companies as there a alot of people out there doing private work to standards but are quallified to do so..the sparkys industry is showing the way with part p..we should maybe hook up with them instead :yes:

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There is no real qualification for alarm engineers, is there?

I know they have a NVQ for alarm engineering but it's not that well recognised and certainly not required. I did a 2 year NVQ in electrical installation and associated electronics before starting in alarms and I think this gave me a great advantage in understanding security sytems (I still lacked practical experience, though). Without it, I believe, I would still be stumbling my way through faults and 'learning by numbers' instead of approaching any new system/fault with a sound basic knowledge of how it MUST work. A basic (at least) understanding of electrical theory is a necessity in this industry. I think this is an issue that should be high on your new agenda. There should be a required qualification to work as a security systems engineer, just as there is with electricians. Care is needed , though, as Joe Bloggs can get a van with 'electrical contractor' on it and endanger lives day in, day out, so long as he is deemed competent (by whom?), according to current electrical regulations. Although a cowboy engineer may not be as potentially fatal, the reputation of the good guys would still suffer and the qualifications they had might as well be useless. ( The recent 'strikes' by electricians in Manchester due to unskilled, low paid labour are a prime example.)

Qualifications for alarm engineers would at least show the candidate has an understanding of 'how it works' even if they need to gain the practical experience. At least new engineers to the trade would understand why and what they were testing, rather than just copying what they'd been shown. Anyone can learn to repeat a process. Not everyone can get their head round electrics/electronics and if they don't pass the exam, they don't get in. As well as being beneficial to customer and company, engineers might even end up being worth a bit more for what we know.

:whistle:

If you don't know......ask.

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if they don't pass the exam, they don't get in.

Sorry don’t agree! Qualifications will only help you get an interview. If you cant cut the job you will be found out and removed. I have taken the training route for years in fact we are guilty of over training. The best training is on site hands on experience. We keep up to date records of what our engineers know and we test them bi annually by auditing to identify shortcomings on installation & dd+5839+4737+5266+7671. I wish i had other resource,s besides our local Tech (they don’t seem to learn much there). My qualifications for a CV

1 Driving test.

2 Cycling proficiency

3 Length certificate

Should i be removed from the industry?

Customers!

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would you not be willing to complete a half day course with exam, for example?

The thought scares me to death, but if i must i will. Bit like the NICEIC they insisted on inspection and test certification. Now I’ve done inspection and testing for 30years so i ask "am i doing something wrong" No they reply you just need a certificate to prove you can do it. "Who wants to see this certificate?” i ask. Your employer! At this point they realise that i am the employer.

Remember this I left school at 15 served my time as an electrician and have been in business for 25 years. I have three children who have all graduated university. I operate a thriving business, and consider my staff technically excellent. I have generations of ex trained employees who have moved to other disciplines some commanding £60k salaries who still contact me on technical issues. It’s a difficult balance and I think I have it right.

Jeff

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I understand your point of view, but people in your position would not have to be 'tested' as you are a time served electrician, same with a qualified electrician, you have already proved you have the basic knowledge needed. Even if you were to be tested just for the sake of certification, though, it would only need to be basic theory and yourself and others in your position would find it so easy that it would only be a minor inconvenience to take it. Alternatively, it could be set up so that people who can prove they have been active in the trade for a certain number of years could automatically qualify?

I'm not saying people need to be qualified, People like yourself with no qualifications but 30 odd years under their belt will know and understand more than I and 'newley qualified engineers' ever will.

I just think it's a good idea to have some kind of minimum standard for new engineers.

If you don't know......ask.

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Thanks for that

I’ve already been told i am to be given a certificate based on such a scheme

i didn’t take much notice at the time but apparently a guy from college looks at three jobs and im qualified. Did i mention that i am also audited by my own engineers? they love it. Its called pay back time.

jef

Customers!

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Guest Peter James

If NSI or SSIAB had the same presidence as CORGI does to gas we wouldnt be in the shape we,re in now.

21159[/snapback]

Peter, I shudder to think what would happen.... :no::no::no:

We all want our industry to be a better, more reliable, more profitable entity, but what the inspectorates are blind to is that little fact that paperwok cost money.

Statistics cost money to produce, and all of it can be manipulated to suit the cause its written for!

On one of our security sites, a sparky has installed a fire alarm and it has been signed off as being correct and compliant. If we had installed it under the nacoss gold banner it would have been a reinspection if we hadnt been struck off! The sound calculations obviously havent been done as there arent enough sounders and is not compliant with the disability discrimination act...

We didnt get the job by about 20k... the customer has the neccessary paperwork to say its compliant....

James

21312[/snapback]

Hi James

I missed this one sorry for the delay in reply.

Paperwork and satistics only cost money to if you dont know what to do with them.

The whole point of paperwork is to ensure that the job has been done correctly, the whole point of satistics is to notice when things are going wrong.

Do the job correctly the 1st time without having to go back saves you money and if you cant see that then your blind.

Satistics are all about preventing problems they show the big picture and again you must be very short sighted not to see the importance of them.

My quality manual saves me money and without NSI Im not sure that I would be in the same league I am in now .

I think you missed my point re Corgi you see only corgi registered installers are allowed to connect Gas as its dangerouse stuff.

The same should be for security installers, the point im trying to make is at the moment anyone can start up their own security co including ex-burglars.

This should not be allowed to happen, security equipment should be installed by proffesional qualified screened engineers only.

I agree that sparkys are also a pain when it comes to fire alarms we come accross it all the time, we wont take it over unless its right or the customer pays for us to put it right. Theres a manslaughter charge hanging over the customer and the person who installed it until it is right.

Pete :)

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Sorted, dunno why my email didnt work..? I use it all the time..? Infact thats the one I recieved your Topsites application on..?

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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My ISP is Telewest, but havnt had any email problems for ages. And as you know the sites server hosts my email address for this site.

........................................................

Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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