james.wilson Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Recently have tested some dual path signalling devices on how long they report catastrophic failure or both paths failing at the same time. I tested this by removing the power to the units. Redcare Secure PSTN/GPRS Grade 3 http://www.thesecuri...ing-times-test/ Attack Time : 18:35 Primary Path Failure Reported : 19:27 Secondary Path Failure Reported : 23:27 Redcare GSM Grade 4 http://www.thesecuri...eporting-times/ Attack Time :12:12:21 Primary Path Failure reported : 12:12:53 Secondary Path Failure reported : 12:15:05 Dualcom PSTN/GPRS Grade 3 http://www.thesecuri...__fromsearch__1 Attack Time :15:20 Primary Path Failure reported : 20:18 Secondary Path Failure reported : 20:18 Webwayone PSTN/GPRS Grade 3 http://www.thesecuri...ing-times-test/ Attack Time :18:35 Primary Path Failure reported : 18:41 Secondary Path Failure reported : 18:42 Webwayone IP/GPRS Grade 4 http://www.thesecuri...ing-times-test/ Attack Time : 12:39:36 Primary Path Failure reported : 12:42:23 Secondary Path Failure reported : 12:42:53 Currently as expected the redcare GSM is quickest to report as this reported a single path failure the quickest (less than 1 minute) and that both paths had failed inside 3 minutes. Next up is the Webway Grade 4 unit. It reported single path failure within 3 minutes and that both paths had failed within 4 mins, Next up is the grade 3 Webway unit. This was a pstn version not an IP version as the IP version is grade 4. It reported a single path failure within 6 minutes and that both paths had failed within 7 minutes. Next up was the redcare secure 3 that reported a single path failure within 52 minutes and a dual path failure within 292 minutes. Currently last of the grade 3 devices was the dualcom. This reported a single path failure within 298 minutes and that both paths had failed within 298 minutes. It is worth noting that the these units were all production units. Some were older than others. For example the redcare GSM was installed in 2006 and the dualcom was installed in 2009. Grade 4 requires that a dual path failure is reported within 5 hours. Grade 3 requires it is reported within 25 hours. This test has been an eye opener for me. I have always known about the reporting times however i did assume that single path failures on the grade 3 mainstream devices would be faster. No wonder the insurance industry has been pushing for LPS 1277. I have not tested a grade 2 device yet, to be honest i cant see the point as they will be considerably worse than the grade 3's tested. I will not be using many redcare secures or dualcoms at grade 3 without extreme caution. I will also have to look at the option of upgrading some of the existings to either a webway pstn or moving them to grade 4. Im curious as to the rest of your thoughts. James **edit 19/3/12 to add webway grade 4 securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alterEGO Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'd second your thoughts to some extent. However I'm not that shocked, I have been using G4 more since we last spoke about this. However if the client will not pay for G4 and sign for G2 then thats what they get. However I am thinking of reducing our G4 monitoring charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orc1975 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 To confirm, as per James' previous post the DualCom G3 that was tested was installed in March 2009, in September 2009 we launched G3S which has 1 hour total failure reporting time. We are happy to provide a unit for testing or should someone have a G3S already installed that they would like to test then that's fine. 10 months ago we also removed the £100 connection fee from DualCom G4 and also include WorldSIM as standard to make G4 signalling more accessible to anyone wanting to install Grade 4 signalling. In some cases this now makes G4 cheaper than G3 in Year One. Thanks, John Coleman - DualCom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 I havnt got any production G3s or G4 dualcoms to do this test. I am looking at a unit from another installer over the next week or so. John is correct as i stated this is a pre g3s unit and does feature 5 hour reporting time. However John i was suprised as we discussed that i didnt get a single path failure quicker like on the redcare secure (which is your products closest competition on price if im correct). Also worth noting the redcare secure and webway units are new. The dualcom and the redcare gsm are not. As stated the dualcom is early 09 and the redcare gsm is 06 age. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orc1975 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Hi James, when we introduced G3s it was to reduce total failure reporting time and to provide confirmation quicker than the 5 hours that was previously achieved. We can report a single path failure on G3s on either path in 4 minutes and we would report this failure on the remaining path. If we lose both paths simultaneously then we would not send a single path failure and our Gemini Managed Network would send a total confirmed failure (poll fail) to the ARC after 60 minutes. The competitor product you used on your test notified a single path failure in just under an hour and total failure in 5 hours where as we will send confirmation of total failure (poll fail) in 1 hour on G3s - 4 hours quicker. Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 John. I have not tested that but im sure you are correct. I feel i need to shift some of my grade 3 units to grade 4 as i did assume they would send a single path failure in this attack scenario quicker than 5 hours. I accept that your new unit does this in 1 hour but id hoped and assumed yours and the secure 3 would report a single path failure quicker as it says in both yours and redcares sales docs, i obviously misunderstood the tables. I now know this isnt the case and understand why. But obviously as i wasnt aware this was the case im concerned on some systems and need to change some comms grades or units. Thankyou for involving yourself in this John its always useful to have manufacturer input. You know a lot more about the workings of your own products than us installers do. James securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Harris Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 We will be carrying out tests in the coming week on some more recent Dualcom units including G3S & G4. I will give an update once these are completed so that we can build up an accurate picture. It would be appropriate for me to point out that we should perhaps carry out 3 tests per device at differing times as you may find one unit is just about to poll when a catastrophic failure occurs and another unit may just have completed a poll. Multiple tests should even out any potential deviation on that basis. Good work James and thanks for taking the time to carry it out. As John mentioned CSL have kept their reporting times over and above the required minimums, the more recent units benefit from this more substantially though. Joe  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb-eye Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 All very intresting although not exactly news is it? Critical failure of either one path or both are surely not as big an issue as event reporting. As an alarm co we are more intrested in the time of event reporting and the fact we get TWO bites of the cherry with dual path than we are with the inprobabilaty of a dual path failure. If we RA that the inprobabbilaty of both paths failing is viable then the appropriate equipment should be selected Red/GSM in our case. All this talk of GSM blockers followed by line cuts. Is it just talk or is it a trend we should be aware of? Keep the panel (comms) OFF the entry route and you will sleep easy. Please tell me if im missing something? Customers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Critical failure of either one path or both are surely not as big an issue as event reporting. Equal in my opinion. WIth both paths down your not going to get anything reported. As an alarm co we are more intrested in the time of event reporting and the fact we get TWO bites of the cherry with dual path than we are with the inprobabilaty of a dual path failure. Agreed event reporting time is important but i dont agree its an improbability. Now with panels holding signals under latest dd243 or bs8243 the panel doesnt have to be on the entry route to be vulnerable. IF signals were sent immediately and aborted this would be less of an issue. I have had systems attacked by axe sledgehammer etc that would cause an immediate dual path failure. Sometimes you have no option but to put the panel on the entry route (single room systems etc) and yes grade 4 signalling would be a must in that situation. The issue of blockers etc has happened but the concern is you have no idea if its happening on your current estate. Plus we may go back to the days of 'stuff and cut' but a more modern version. Also it would not be detected or reported as a jam. Maybe this could/should be implemented and or logged in the unit. We get jam detection on the wireless detection side. Jef you know your not missing anything. You know me the glass is half full and this does concern me. I also accept it isnt really news but i did think the g3 comms would be faster than this, granted not reporting confirmed line fails but faster at reporting single path fails. re testing speed of reporting time. Ill put a test together for this. securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb-eye Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Now with panels holding signals under latest dd243 or bs8243 the panel doesnt have to be on the entry route to be vulnerable. IF signals were sent immediately and aborted this would be less of an issue. Off my radar, i will ask when im back in the office if we missed this.We as a co addressed the signaling issue many years ago very sucsesfuly. Unfortunately the market products and costs are driven from elswhere. Customers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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