martin691 Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi, I have a Scantronic 9651 hardwired control unit and a 9943 keypad. I have the following zones Zone 1: Fire (FR) Zone 2: Normal Alarm (NA) Zone 3: Normal Alarm (NA) Zone 4: Normal Alarm (NA) Zone 5-8: Not Used (NU) I am usings CC + Com A/T as a zone configuration. When I go into installer mode, and then press 99 and tick, the display shows as expected: 99:Checking bus 99 Exit Eng? I then press the tick, and it shows: 99:Checking Sys Shortly after this it flicks through the following messages: Tamper Zone 01 Tamper Zone 02 Tamper Zone 03 Tamper Zone 04 I checked the resistance between the 2 COM A/T connectors, and it was about 1kOhm. I thought maybe this value is too high, so I connected a wire direct between the 2 connectors, so that it gave a zero resistance value, but when I then did the whole procedure above and it ran through the checks, it said the same thing. Surely by shorting between the 2 COM A/T connectors it shouldn't register a tamper? In the attached photo, you can see that there is a blue and white wire going into the COM A/T connectors, and then I put a black wire accross the 2 to test the Anti Tamper problem. Thanks in advance for any help. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 It may be the way the panel has its zones programmed. Check the manual for the correct zone setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I gave details about how I configured the zones, but just to give more info: Zone 1: Fire (FR) abcd Zone 2: Normal Alarm (NA) ab Zone 3: Normal Alarm (NA) ab Zone 4: Normal Alarm (NA) a Zone 5-8: Not Used (NU) I don't know if this answered it, and if not, I don't know what you mean. Thanks Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 I also changed all zones to NU (Not Used), which stopped the message. I then set zone 1 back to FR and it came back with the message: Tamper Zone 01 I then change Zone 4 to NA (Normal Alarm), and made all others, and it came back with: Tamper Zone 04 I would guess no matter which zones are NU, the tamper circuit will remain the same regardless. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidy Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I think miaran was refering to zone wiring as in is the panel setup as FSL or CC Hey Ho, Lets Go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 When I press 21 and a tick in installer mode, I get the following: 21: CC+ComA/T I wired it as CC, so have not used resistors, and the tamper loop has very little load over it, so in my opinion should not be showing tampered. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Take the tamper pair out and put a hard link across the a/t on the board and see what happens. Then proceed to meter out each tamper circuit individually. I take it the tampers are in series and not parallel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Worth putting the 2k2 resistors directly across 1 or 2 zones. Then exit programming. If the panel still thinks its FSL, those zones should dissapear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Take the tamper pair out and put a hard link across the a/t on the board and see what happens. Then proceed to meter out each tamper circuit individually. I take it the tampers are in series and not parallel? Unless I misunderstand this, I put a black wire going accross the a/t as you can see in the photo. The tampers are in series. The current resistance accross the tamper contacts is zero. With and without the direct wire, the result is the same. Worth putting the 2k2 resistors directly across 1 or 2 zones. Then exit programming. If the panel still thinks its FSL, those zones should dissapear. Do you mean putting the 2k2 resistors instead of the yellow and green wires that you can see in the photo? Therefore I will not be touching the tamper loop. I will try that now. I don't think the panel thinks its FSL, because pressing 21 and a tick comes back with CC+ComA/T. I changed it to FSL which had the same Tamper messages, and then changed it back again, and still had Tamper messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Do you mean putting the 2k2 resistors instead of the yellow and green wires that you can see in the photo? Therefore I will not be touching the tamper loop. Exactly. with the 2k2 in, the zone will be seen as normal if the panel is in FSL mode. Have you tried defaulting the panel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Exactly. with the 2k2 in, the zone will be seen as normal if the panel is in FSL mode. Have you tried defaulting the panel? If I take out the green wires in zone 3 and 4 (using a shared connector, which creates an O/C), then the Tamper messages disappear. Putting a 2k2 resistor in place has the same effect as the O/C. I do not understand why as this is not part of the tamper loop? By defaulting the panel - Do you mean turning it off and then shorting the kick start pins. Turn it on, and then unshort the kickstart pins? This is what I have done. I also did a 98 tick on the keypad which showed 'Load Default', to which I pressed 1 and tick, which reset everything. For further info I did a 199 and tick, which gave the following data: 199: Circuit 01 Panel FR 0KO 199: Circuit 02 Panel NA 0KO 199: Circuit 03 Panel NA 0KO 199: Circuit 04 Panel NA 0KO 199: Circuit 05 Panel NU O/C 199: Circuit 06 Panel NU O/C 199: Circuit 07 Panel NU O/C 199: Circuit 08 Panel NU O/C This is after I removed the wires shorting zone 5-8, which seems to have no effect. I also did a walk test (command 97), which bleeped when I went past the 3 sensors, so I think that part works ok. Thanks for the help so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I am attaching a PDF showing how I have done all the wiring. The bit I am most unsure about is the External speaker and connecting that. It is an old external speaker and I think I will replace it anyway. The circles in this represent the wires. Thanks. Martin. Alarm system.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I think its best to link out all zones, exit engineering and log the results, then add them back one by one. This will show whether the fault is on any of the zones. Its a bit long winded but it tends to work. Cant see any problem with the diagram, only the new external sounders sends a 0V to TR rather than linking it out. Just out of interest what are the connections at the Smoke head and PIRs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I think its best to link out all zones, exit engineering and log the results, then add them back one by one. This will show whether the fault is on any of the zones. Its a bit long winded but it tends to work. Cant see any problem with the diagram, only the new external sounders sends a 0V to TR rather than linking it out. Just out of interest what are the connections at the Smoke head and PIRs? Are you saying that the Tamper message, is not just a result of the tamper loop being broken, but it can also be from the Yellow and green wires going to the PIR or Smoke Sensor? The connections in the Smoke head and PIR are shown in the attachment. The smoke head, was not wired by me, and is an old unit in an original alarm. I replaced everything except the smoke head and the external sounder. I will investigate further tomorrow. Thanks, Martin. Alarm system.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Yep, could be.. I've had a trapped wire on a 9751 and that caused a tamper fault on all 8 zones, so it could be that or the existing kit may be wired differently. Let us know the connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooly-bobs Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The panel cycling through tamper 1-4 shows a fault on the global tamper cct not every zone, its just how its displayed. Check for short between AUX and a zone or tamper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Check for short between AUX and a zone or tamper. I couldn't find any shorts. I have found the problem to be with zone 3, if I take out the yellow and green wires the problem is sorted, but a zone is ommitted. I have tried to work out the problem with zone 3. I have done the following tests: 1) checked the yellow and green wires are not broken, so shorted the yellow and green wires together at the PIR end and found there was almost zero resistance at the control unit end. 2) Walk test showed that it worked ok, and the lights on the PIR come on at the right time. 3) taken out all the wires in the PIR and put them in again, to make sure that one was not connecting properly. 4) I have tried a replacement PIR. To me this means that the zone circuit seems ok, and the PIR works fine. The tamper circuit in zone 3 is still connected, so not touched the tamper circuit. I am therefore a little confused, I will next try and replace the wires going to the PIR in zone 3. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do? I cannot imagine that it will make any difference though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I would disconnect all the wires, at the panel, that go that PIR and ensuring they are not connected, check to see if any resistance can be read between any of them, ie red to yellow, green to black etc.. Try not to hold both wires to the end of the meter leads as the meter will read you, not the wires. (hold 1 wire by all means) Zero resistance is a bit too low personally (unless the PIR is right beside the panel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 I would disconnect all the wires, at the panel, that go that PIR and ensuring they are not connected, check to see if any resistance can be read between any of them, ie red to yellow, green to black etc.. Try not to hold both wires to the end of the meter leads as the meter will read you, not the wires. (hold 1 wire by all means) Zero resistance is a bit too low personally (unless the PIR is right beside the panel) Hi, I have done that just before you wrote the reply. There seems to be little resistance on any of the wires. 20 Ohms was the maximum that I could see. The odd thing is that when the wires are all connected in the PIR and all wires connected in the control unit, the resistance on the tamper coming in and coming out of the PIR seems to be about 1KOhm. All the other PIRS have minimal resistance, so the resistance must be coming from inside the PIR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin691 Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 I think I found the problem. It looks as though one of the wires is damaged, but not sure where and cannot see any damage either. I joined the blue and white together at the Control unit side, then at the I measured the resisatnce at the PIR side and it was virtually zero. I then joined the blue and white together at the PIR side and then measured the resistance at the Control unit. The resistance is about 2KOhm. This should have been same of virtually zero, so I reckon some of the 6 wires are damaged and touching each other. The damaged location will be hard to find as it looks like the alarm was installed at the same time as building the house, in some really hard to find locations. Thanks for your help. Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itesecurity Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I think I found the problem. It looks as though one of the wires is damaged, but not sure where and cannot see any damage either. I joined the blue and white together at the Control unit side, then at the I measured the resisatnce at the PIR side and it was virtually zero. I then joined the blue and white together at the PIR side and then measured the resistance at the Control unit. The resistance is about 2KOhm. This should have been same of virtually zero, so I reckon some of the 6 wires are damaged and touching each other. The damaged location will be hard to find as it looks like the alarm was installed at the same time as building the house, in some really hard to find locations. Thanks for your help. Martin. Better if you can find the damage, if you can't then use FSL and you will only need 4 of the 6 wires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Any chance you've got some of the old alarm kit? Might hint as to how the system was wired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9651 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 ov to zones 1-4 short...? And damn that panel is messy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miaren Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 ov to zones 1-4 short...? And damn that panel is messy! Good point..... Why does the photo seem to have a different set make of terminals in each section....? Nothing matches...(Scantronic aren't that skint?) Keypad connections seem to match Zones 5-8...... Is it re-furbed? :hmm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9651 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 nah see loads of Cooper like that, same on the gals too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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