lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 quite simply as you state - the loss of a neg tamper return will force the panel to sound the external sounder (IIRC the 9448+ doesnt allow for non triggering of bell tamper) which didnt happen in this post. I am sure this is wrong. If you disconnect the switched negative from the panel and simply tamper the external sounder it will still sound. How else would an external sounder be protected in the event of a cable cut for instance? If a 9448 tamper is triggered the s- stays at postive potential when the panel is unset. The only event that will cause to to go negative when unset is a PA or initial power up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 If a 9448 tamper is triggered the s- stays at postive potential when the panel is unset.NOPE The only event that will cause to to go negative when unset is a PA or initial power up. NOPE or loosing the neg return but TBH were going into far too much detail in a public forum so lets just say everyone of our 94`s always has and leave it at that ................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 or loosing the neg return but TBH were going into far too much detail in a public forum so lets just say everyone of our 94`s always has and leave it at that ................. Apology accepted Angus, I knew you would bow to my lenghthier (though not as current experince). lol I have a 9448 in my (rented house) I have just tried removing -r from panel and no external sounder when unset. Also as anticipated the panel does power up in full alarm! Apology accepted Angus, I knew you would bow to my lenghthier (though not as current experince). lolI have a 9448 in my (rented house) I have just tried removing -r from panel and no external sounder when unset. Also as anticipated the panel does power up in full alarm! Oops, forgot to mention, mine isn't a 9448+, it's just a 9448 and it was fitted in 1997 according to the paperwork. The 9448 + may work differently, I didn't fit many but I'm pretty sure that all the 9500, 9100, 9800, 9600 etc etc all powered up in full alarm. From a security point of view it makes sense when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Apology accepted Angus, I knew you would bow to my lenghthier (though not as current experince). lolI have a 9448 in my (rented house) I have just tried removing -r from panel and no external sounder when unset. the way you tested it I very much doubted it would Also as anticipated the panel does power up in full alarm! ditto Oops, forgot to mention, mine isn't a 9448+, it's just a 9448 and it was fitted in 1997 according to the paperwork. The 9448 + may work differently, I didn't fit many but I'm pretty sure that all the 9500, 9100, 9800, 9600 etc etc all powered up in full alarm. From a security point of view it makes sense when you think about it. perhaps your landlord has a portfolio of houses you could go round and try them all Mr Lawandorder I have no issue with DIY`ers offering advice it`s upto the O/P to decide which course of action he wants to take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breff Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Believe me guys, we have hundreds of 9448 panels out there. The panel will run happily without a battery until a power fail, but a connected knackered battery WILL cause a tamper. The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct! (Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Mr Lawandorder I have no issue with DIY`ers offering advice it`s upto the O/P to decide which course of action he wants to take And I have no issue with proffesionals offering advice as long as it is substantiated by logical reasoned argument and not simply supported by "Nope" which isn't very helpful and simply suggests that you cannot actually provide a reasoned argument. I do agree that a faulty battery can cause all sorts of probelms, including tamper faults, but your assertion that it is the only thing that can cause a tamper fault (100%) is flawed and misleading in my humble opinion. I also resent the inferrence that I am a DIYer, I worked full time in the alarm industry for in excess of 20 years and still do the odd bit of subbying which equates to 26 years experince approximately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 And I have no issue with proffesionals offering advice as long as it is substantiated by logical reasoned argument and not simply supported by "Nope" which isn't very helpful and simply suggests that you cannot actually provide a reasoned argument. I do agree that a faulty battery can cause all sorts of probelms, including tamper faults, but your assertion that it is the only thing that can cause a tamper fault (100%) is flawed and misleading in my humble opinion. isn`t what I said now is it? I also resent the inferrence that I am a DIYer, I worked full time in the alarm industry for in excess of 20 years and still do the odd bit of subbying which equates to 26 years experince approximately. please don`t take our reticance to discuss the inner workings of systems as anything other than what it is - the minumum amount of informantion that can be given without compramising others security as we`ve said all along in this thread it could be 1 - the battery 2 - a fault on cable 3 - a loose lid on a device but its unlikely to be the switch on the external box because the external sounder wasnt triggered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antinode Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Have to agree with angus here. You tend to find most panels fire the bell trigger on a bell tamper (bell tamper ring) as certain SAB's won't trigger themselves on bell tamper, relying on the panel to do it for them. Trade Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 1 My apologies Angus, you didn't say it was 100% you said more like 100%. I do accept that it is important to prevent potential compromise but I also think it's important to refrain from giving misleading information and whilst I fully accept that a permanently open tamper switch on an external sounder will cause it to sound an intermittent one will not always. I only say this because it only takes 500ms to trigger the panel and you would not neccasarily hear a sounder in that time. Your inference that the test I did on a 9448 tonight is any different is also flawed (in my opinion), I admit I did not go up a ladder and simulate a tamper fault but removing the -r from the panel is electrically the same as far as the panel is concerned and I can assure you that the external did not sound though I would expect it to if the panel were set. Again I would stress that this is pretty obvious really, if the external relied on the panel to sound in the event of a bell tamper how could it sound if the cable were cut? Also as I'm sure you're aware many older external sounders used universal SAB modules and with some of these there were two microswitches which were physically in tandem. One directly switched the sounder and the other removed the return which could be either a neg or pos depending on the panel being used. To be honest and as you have rightly pointed out we are speculating and ultimately as with all intermittent faults it needs testing properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Have to agree with angus here. You tend to find most panels fire the bell trigger on a bell tamper (bell tamper ring) as certain SAB's won't trigger themselves on bell tamper, relying on the panel to do it for them. Well I can honestly say that very few of the panels I have worked on will trigger the bell output in reponse to a bell tamper although some can be programmed to. The 9448 most certainly doesn't as I have just proved. It is true that some SAB's don't trigger themselves on bell tamper, it depends on whether the microswitch is wired in series with the - supply or the -r, either way the panel will trigger. Most of the ready assemled boxes I have fitted do trigger themselves (Elmdene, Pyronix, Texecom, ADE, Guartec, CQR) but some of the universal sab mods could be wired in many configurations. Also many cheap panels have all the tamper inputs wired in series on the PCB anyway so if the bell tamper caused a bell output so would any other tamper, this would have been a clear breach of BS4737 which was in force during 9448 production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubit Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 Well I can honestly say that very few of the panels I have worked on will trigger the bell output in reponse to a bell tamper although some can be programmed to.The 9448 most certainly doesn't as I have just proved. But did you carry out the procedures correctly? Makes a world of difference to the result. "Bother!", said Pooh, as he found his smack had talc in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 But did you carry out the procedures correctly? Makes a world of difference to the result. I think so though I am open to correction. I opened the panel and defeated the panel tamper then silenced and reset the alarm. I then removed the s- so as not to disturb the neighbors (I live in a very quiet village). I checked the s- and it was at + potential, I then removed the -r from the panel at which point the internal activated. I disconnected the speaker cos it was deafening me them measured s-, it was still at positive potential. Given the differening opinions on this thread I thought I had better eliminate the possibility of a faulty panel so I pulled the PA link and the s- went negative. I appreciate that this is not quite the same as physically removing the bell cover but electrically it is identical as far as the panel is concerned. (subject to correction) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 I think this is starting to run its course. Points already made so please no more. Unless its in relation to the O/P James securitywarehouse https://store.securitywarehouse.co.uk Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think this is starting to run its course. Points already made so please no more.Unless its in relation to the O/P James With respect I think the current argument is relevant to the OP, on one hand he is being told that his problem cannot be related to the external sounder because if it was then the external sounder would operate. I beleive that this information is misleading to the OP and I have tried, unsuccesfully it would appear, to prove that with this particular panel the fact that the external sounder did not activate is not neccasarily an indication that the fault is not related to the sounder. (do we actually know that the OPs sounder works)??? Errr, that would be a no then. The debate is healthy, it is not offensive and I am certainly learning a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Lawandorder. You have made your point, so have others, what im saying is thats all thats needed. Im glad your learning and debate is healty but i feel this has run its course unless we have new postings directly related to the OP. securitywarehouse https://store.securitywarehouse.co.uk Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 OMG wapping big discusion over what a bell tamper can or can't do, yet nobody has looked the real life more common situation. if the bell tamper switch is not held properly, given the windy weather the tamper operates, now this might be for a very short period so even if the siren sounds itself in such a situation it will stop again as soon as the lid pushes the tamper switch back again. roll of events -: siren tamper ok = silence siren tamper operated = internals and possibly externals siren tamper re-closes = internal siren continues and depending on the panel programming - the external ceases. the fact the internal definitely sounded means the o/p did likely not hear the external siren, and if intermittent then likely it stopped before he canceled the tamper alert, silencing the internal siren at that point. as an aside i thought the 9448 showed bF on the keypad (just as the 9800 genre), but imo such a hateful little panal i've never used them by choice. after all of that - my moneys on a lose detector lid dislodged after decorating regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 as an aside i thought the 9448 showed bF on the keypad (just as the 9800 genre)regs alan panel doesn`t have a display as such - just LED`s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 panel doesn`t have a display as such - just LED`s i said it was nasty lol! regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 i said it was nasty lol!regs alan not nasty, just of its time really but virtually bomb proof in it`s favour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorlton Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 not nasty, just of its time really but virtually bomb proof in it`s favour that's the 1st compliment you've ever given to arfur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 that's the 1st compliment you've ever given to arfur and you can sod off lol! regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golf123 Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 Thanks for all the feedback...it's been most useful. I replaced the battery yesterday (Sunday) and so far so good (touch wood!)...the alarm has not been activated. One comment about the external sounder...I thought our system was set up so that the internal alarm sounded first upon activation (for about 30 secs) before the external alarm sounded. I have always managed to turn off the internal alarm within the 30 secs so maybe that is why the external alarm did not activate. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 One comment about the external sounder...I thought our system was set up so that the internal alarm sounded first upon activation (for about 30 secs) before the external alarm sounded. I have always managed to turn off the internal alarm within the 30 secs so maybe that is why the external alarm did not activate.Thanks again. thats a totaly different thing but fingers crossed for your battery cure LOL Angus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 thats a totaly different thing but fingers crossed for your battery cure LOLAngus I agree, this is unrelated, the internal should only activate before the external when you trigger the alarm via a final exit door. An alarm generated by a tamper should activate internal and external at the same time when the system is set. Hope the new battery cures it and a new battery certainly wont do any harm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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