james.wilson Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 while I am qualified to design a fire alarm, I do not belive i am qualified to decide on the catagory. Im seeing more and more phrases like 'whats the minium i can get away with' etc and then the responsible person making the risk assesment fit an M system etc. Also other electrician type companies never mention a catagory on the quote, and the client hasnt a clue. It also seems a few are just doing L5 regardless. How do you advise your clients what catagory they need, or dont you etc. And if like me you remove yourself from the topic of risk assesment, how is the client supposed to decide on a catagory? Obviously we cant advise else we risk the 'bad advise' problem when it all goes wrong. James securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thunderfingers Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 while I am qualified to design a fire alarm, I do not belive i am qualified to decide on the catagory. Im seeing more and more phrases like 'whats the minium i can get away with' etc and then the responsible person making the risk assesment fit an M system etc.Also other electrician type companies never mention a catagory on the quote, and the client hasnt a clue. It also seems a few are just doing L5 regardless. How do you advise your clients what catagory they need, or dont you etc. And if like me you remove yourself from the topic of risk assesment, how is the client supposed to decide on a catagory? Obviously we cant advise else we risk the 'bad advise' problem when it all goes wrong. James The L5 category is,as you have pointed out James,a get out clause and it overly used (or abused) by so called fire specifiers in deciding which category the should be installing.I have been asked to quote and design a system to L5 but I bounce it back and ask to which part of L5 are they referring to.Mostly it's detection in "rooms within rooms" that lead onto the escape route without vision panels and also areas of specific risk. L5 should be (IMO) supplemental to a definate category of system (L4 plus L5 for example). It's not up to the alarm company to specify the category of system (otherwise everywhere would be L1 or P1!) but we can design to the required category if the client makes it clear what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Allen, i hear what your saying. Problem is, we mainly do small to medium sized system <80 devices and the client just wants a 'fire alarm' How would you recommend the average responsible person / building owner etc, decide on that catagory. With intruder we take guidance from the insurance companies, but with fire they dont seem bothered. Of course i advise they have a professional Risk assesment done for them, but the ones i have seen rarely include a fire alarm catagory and are just a question and answer report (ie of the internet). Asking them about catagory gets em all flustered. A lot of the time as the client can do the risk assesment themseleves they ask 'which is cheapest' and all I can say is in the short term then 'M' If they request an M or an L1 it gives me someting to design too. My concern is the people prepared to install a 'fire alarm' without discussing catagory etc before. I assume the cert will show 'M' etc but isnt there a duty of care to ensure someone has specified a catagory?? securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorlton Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 On this issue 90% of customers have no idea what they want other than as you say a FA & cheap at that. The FRA should ideally state the advised category for the building, it's wrong if it does not and merely states FA required/in place unless it is a small property that does not need a FA due to occupancy, nature of use and fire loading. Taking away the obvoious nursing homes, hotels, B&B's which should all be L1 or L2 what does it leave? Offices, factories, shops, business centres etc. The above could be simplified to L3 in the vast majority of cases - escape routes and rooms leading off of basically. The above is only a summary but bear in mind the Fire scotland act & the RRO do not require additional fire safety measures per say merely changes the way it is assessed and recorded. This should highlight any shortcoming more clearly than the prevoius system of awaiting the fire officers visit once in X amount years the follow up letter then negotiating what to do and how quickly slowly it gets done. Have a look at the industry specific guidance notes available on line - http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/ C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esp-protocol Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 James, in a nutshell it's not down to you to specify a category. We had this discussion with the BAFE man because as you say the client hasn't a clue and wants a definitive answer. Basically we write in the quote that it is their responsibility to take advice and decide on the category following an RA but that in the absence of such advice we will suggest a category in line with the recommendations of current standards. But in making such suggestions we have to make the client aware of his options etc.... hence our average quote is made up of about 15 pages of standard bumph.... And if the client wants an M category cos its cheapest then most likely they have failed to provide adequate protection for the risk and could get pulled by the FB (if they ever get inspected) under the Reform Regs. There is nothing wrong with you installing such a system but you do have a duty to point out in your commissioning certification and verification whether you think the protection provided is adequate for the type of premises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Agreed, but thats what we do.... most say dont worry about it, they are lying to you to make you pay for a Risk assesment etc. I understand eventually they will get caught but at the moment anyone can install a fire alarm and sign it off securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esp-protocol Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I understand eventually they will get caught but at the moment anyone can install a fire alarm and sign it off Agreed .... and thats what i've always said.... plumbers, butchers and electricians can sign a fag box and the customer knows no different.... At least with BAFE we have to submit all certificates to them for scrutiny, but realistically i think it should be insurance driven so that when you renew your premium you submit your current certification, and then have systems in place for those certificates to be validated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 lol maybe but they only use it after an event to not pay out. They dont want to be too proactive on that else it will cost em a fortune!! But i agree, people arnt aware and some dont want to be aware. Until there are a few high profile cases it will continue. Cant see how BAFE will help, if you couldnt cert unless approved then it would.. as it is my wife could do it at the moment.. great though she is, fire alarms aint her forte securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 My minimum is L3 unless the client proves otherwise which has only happened once, there risk assessor said L5 and where detection was needed, i got the customer to sign for this. The regs give guidance as to what category goes where and IIRC it says designer is well within his rights to state this. If a customer ask me to design a fire alarm system, i design it to BS5839 recommendations, there is no confusion. Now its a totally different kettle of fish if the customer wants to ignore the advice of a trained BS5839 designer and install what cheapo joe bloggs recommends coz it saves him a few quid. We will always meet reg cutters, all we can say is either you want it done right or want it done wrong, simple as that, their choice. I really can't be ar**** with it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.wilson Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Adi, im not disagreeing with you But when you say 'i design it to BS5839 recommendations' you need to know a catagory. If that catagory is unknown what do you do? securitywarehouse Security Supplies from Security Warehouse Trade Members please contact us for your TSI vetted trade discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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