morph Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 agreed it's a surface contact, but you could also use a concealled one if you have the room. with my method you only ever see the contact while the door is open, the magnet and contact are in the ideal position i.e. close as without fouling each other and inline, it looks like part of the moulding to the untrained eye, and you don't see any cable so a professional finish is obtained (the minimum to aim at imo). so it's what i take the trouble to do in domestics or prestige front doors on an office block or instance - but then we all have our versions and levels of "standards" (don't we Angus ). magnets will retain their flux better when kept with other magnets (they are very social beings), as happens when placed in a bag of 50/100 and held on a shelf in storage. all permanent magnets lose some of their power after being made over time, but more sharply so in the period after being isolated i.e. when 1st installed, they also lose some power when dropped as can happen in transporting them. so from the above, a contact working today especially over an extended gap and through other masking properties of the door construction, may (or may not) cause intermittent operation due to this loss, and if on the limits and the door drops slightly due to mechanical wear problems will also be experienced. edit to add if the door slams this will also slightly affect the magnets powers every time which could be enough over time to cause a failure phew! believe me or not up to you guys and galls, but i never thought i'd ever give a master class on door contacts, practical and theory so Andy you owe me pint regs alan If were on about a master class, I was always of the school of thought that it was bad practice to fit a flush contact on an outward opening door. To quote a paper from the University of Surrey:"The permeability of a vacuum has a finite value - about 1.257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 To quote a paper from the University of Surrey:"The permeability of a vacuum has a finite value - about 1.257 If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateurandy Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 so surely you then understand having both air gap and plastic are a doubled 'barrier' banghead There will be no further comments from me on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateurandy Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 I was always of the school of thought that it was bad practice to fit a flush contact on an outward opening door A point made much earlier that I have already said I had decided to follow; though in this case the double seal would reduce the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 If were on about a master class, I was always of the school of thought that it was bad practice to fit a flush contact on an outward opening door. suppose i'll have to pull on the that 'fully monitored' debate and claim poetic licence Collin, if the door is outward opening yes it is frowned on, but then not all plastic doors open outwards. i think we are discussing fitting contacts to plastic doors in general (i.e. so no limitation to outward opening only i believe), and this is not a graded system. as Andy has said, he has a PIR also covering this access point so the contact is more for the chime function in his case. tbh in real life if thought the risk of overcoming with a magnet was that high we would all fit a pir - wouldn't we guys and galls? on a more serious thought for comment, take the simple domestic front door. often you have an opening window along side it. and given the ideal place for the contact is on the header to the opening side, if outward opening then the surface contact could be reached through the vent window, and so allegedly could be fooled with a substituted magnet, even easier than you could do with a concealed magnet. tbh, i have never known of a case where a substituted magnet was successfully used on a flush contact, i've tried it myself without success on a test rig, either caused the reed to act with door shut or did not prevent it doing so when opened for long enough. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morph Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 So your now saying that because the system is not graded it doesn't matter. Personally it does matter if the system is graded or not, I would trust that the installer would be professional enough to consider the risk and take the appropriate measures to ensure that the property is adequately protected regardless of grade. Otherwise what is the point of cutting corners? The Fact that the system is not monitored or graded should not be regarded as a valid reason as to cut corners or depart from best practice. As to the position of the contact with regard to vents and windows, surely you would appraise every installation as to risk prior to installation, regardless if it was an old BS install or new EN system? Oh and the door in the picture is that of an outward opening door, is that not what has been discussed in this tread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 So your now saying that because the system is not graded it doesn't matter. Personally it does matter if the system is graded or not, I would trust that the installer would be professional enough to consider the risk and take the appropriate measures to ensure that the property is adequately protected regardless of grade. Otherwise what is the point of cutting corners?The Fact that the system is not monitored or graded should not be regarded as a valid reason as to cut corners or depart from best practice. As to the position of the contact with regard to vents and windows, surely you would appraise every installation as to risk prior to installation, regardless if it was an old BS install or new EN system? Oh and the door in the picture is that of an outward opening door, is that not what has been discussed in this tread! talk about twist my works Colin - so, getting desperate are we? so no, i did not say anything of the sort. i'm saying Andy has installed it himself, Andy as he is not a pro installer by his own honest admission, has not been paid to do this job and so has no dictum to conform to any standard other than safety legally or morally, so he could simply fit a tin can with a few pebbles in it on a spring if he so wished - not that i'd advise it though . as above really but who is cutting corners? oh got it - it's the way i drill through the door cavity silly me . as i said he has a PIR covering the door and i also said if the risk was there we would all do the same - but you still act as though i'm wrong, when it's as plain as that poor hair style of yours i'm not. oh, nearly forgot about the subject tittle -: "Fitting Door Contacts To Replacement Upvc Door, Advice requested on the best ways to do it" again very simple if you read something BEFORE you quote it in wild angst. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateurandy Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 Handbags! Thanks everyone who has offered useful advice and comments. The job is done. If anyone wants to continue a tangential debate why not start a new thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Handbags! Thanks everyone who has offered useful advice and comments. The job is done. If anyone wants to continue a tangential debate why not start a new thread? nah this ones more fun - arfur is posting his usual" heres how it should be done " - tell you what there aint no way Mrs angus ( the building inspector ) would allow me to drill through a structual component , no matter how neat the hole was then to top it all he tells joseph t public how to bypass a door contact he can say it all he wants but at the end of the day he fits em the same as the rest of us . Good theory Arfur ( but not the bit about magic magnets ) but thats all it is theory - either you leave cable visible going into your "top" hole and or you shag up the plaster work ( unless you have a magic hand drill bit ? ) or you just loop it ( photo imminant ) like we all do when the door isnt been fitted along side the install Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 nah this ones more fun - arfur is posting his usual" heres how it should be done " - tell you what there aint no way Mrs angus ( the building inspector ) would allow me to drill through a structual component , no matter how neat the hole was then to top it all he tells joseph t public how to bypass a door contact he can say it all he wants but at the end of the day he fits em the same as the rest of us . Good theory Arfur ( but not the bit about magic magnets ) but thats all it is theory - either you leave cable visible going into your "top" hole and or you shag up the plaster work ( unless you have a magic hand drill bit ? ) or you just loop it ( photo imminant ) like we all do when the door isnt been fitted along side the install if there was a structural problem drilling into a lintel the doors and window frames would not be attached at the header by that method - would they Mrs BCO! tbh, people may think i'm a little pedantic, well perfectionists like me tend to be. i think there is little point in doing or saying something you know or believe to wast time or is wrong - you must agree with me on that surely? so when i post it's from what i know is right and from my own personal experiences as install and service engineer, and the work i have put in to achieve high standards which means understanding why things fail, or certain equipment or permutations are likely to cause more problems, to avoid them at the outset - so yes i have a jaundiced eye for just theoretical bench tested 'miracle cures, which often use 'clap trap' not supported by extensive use out there at the coal face. i stand by what i have said over magnets and power issues, no miracles in sight, it don't happen a lot so you have to see many faults to get to see that particular problem and be aware of and spot it. this is a forum, i.e. for open non-prejudicial discussion, which some seem to think is argumentive for the sake of it. but you can say you do different to me and if that works for you fine nothing wrong in that. and there is a chance what you do is a better way than the way i do it (even imo the likelihood is very rare with greatest respects). i'm always interested both in the practical and the theory where it counts why you think it is so and i can perhaps then adopt it, if my way is better (again obviously imo) i post the alternative when i can offer one. no one is duty bound to do anything my way, and exactely the same go's for me with others suggestions no matter who you otr they are. simple as and no arguments from me regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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