246 replies to this topic

[Service Engineer]

Yeah Pete all your points are valid, and to be honest I doubt i`d risk another legal threat by letting the general public have access to the manuals.

What prompted me looking at this post again was an email I received today of which below is an excert,

Quote

the decision an reasoning to withdraw engineer manuals defeats the freedom of information offered by the internet and depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area

and this was from a senior person high up in a rather large installation company.....

[morph]

I agree with Pete, the guys wrong, if the manuals are available on the manufacturers site then we point them in that direction. If we openly give them out and we are asking for trouble.

Engineers manuals only to the trade. Most manufacturers dont sell to the public, so having access to an engineer manual is not very likely.

As far as that guy is concerned, if the manuals are as accessable on the net as he reckons, then there no problem in us not providing them. I have said it before "do you get the workshop manual when you buy a car" of course not.

Colin.

[amateurandy]

Hmmmmm....

As an end-user I'm (predictably many of you in-the-trade professionals will say) going to disagree with some of the points made. I'm talking in the context of smaller installations, e.g. domestic. No-one in their right mind would expect an amateur to reprogram or fix a large commercial system.

Firstly, it looks as if some of the comments are getting polarised to one extreme or the other. That's probably not going to be helpful as it's likely to alienate people from positive contributions to the debate. And it's beginning to sound a bit like restraint of trade.

Secondly, the comparison to cars is rather spurious. The average car is many orders of magnitude more complex than a domestic alarm. And it can easily kill if not maintained properly (Yes, I know about mains voltages in alarms!) but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent) and do a lot yourself.

Thirdly, given the huge range of systems available, what opportunistic burglar is going to bother learning all the tricks necessary to defeat a myriad of systems. If He's really determined to get in somewhere he'll research the premises and system and take time to plan, and making manuals difficult for users to obtain won't make any difference.

The user manuals only go so far, and the installation manual (again limited) can give much useful help to a "thinking" user. Beyond that you need proper training of course. Please don't dismiss out-of-the-trade as unthinking incompetents - I know you don't really, the existence of this forum shows that and the huge amount of help being given to people like me.

My view is simple - the engineering manual is part of the equipment. It should be kept (securely if appropriate) by the user. If necessary it should have warnings about the consequences of changes made by untrained persons. But at least it will be there for the user to look at (and probably decide he needs professional help) and also it will be there for you when you get called out to a new client you have no records of.

I might add that the installers left all the manuals for my gas cooker, hob, etc. and I'm not Corgi-registered and have no intention of doing anything to them, but I can at least understand the nature of some problems and have them for reference by a professional if I need one.

As for cars; well I have a Ford and an Audi and have the workshop manuals for both on CD and a laptop that I can plug into the OBD sockets. I don't do major work on either, but I can identify problems and save a lot of time and effort at the garage.

OK that's my 10 cents worth, intended to be constructive so don't take anything personally.

Andrew

[Service Engineer]

Quote

(not counting the respect I have for you of course) 

If only there wasn`t a Smilie on the end of that Statement. Thanks Pete

But truthfully I do not have any intention of letting the general public or end user any access to the manual collection. It is now and will always be only available to those members who have proven themselves to be in the trade.

I just thought i`d post that excert from an email i received after seeing how much the POLL result had changed. I do like to try and please everyone who visits this site, and this bit "depleats the effectiveness of your site in a crucial area" of his email bugged me....

[engineery]

good point dale

[CompostCORNER]

Intruder alarms are household devices that are quite unique in my opinion. If your washing machine, TV, computer, car, or any other household item breaks down, the user has the opportunity to remedy the problem either immediately or many months in the future. The point being, the end user doesn't have to have to fix the fault immediately upon the fault emerging and be on the spot to have money ready to pay someone in the know, to fix the problem now due to it disturbing the neighbours.

Many older alarms that were installed with SAB's that have no cut-off circuitry can hold their users to ransom if a fault develops as theres potential of a SAB unit sounding for hours as the onboard nicad discharges. Although getting less likely as the years go on due to the implementation of noise pollution regulations, many customers in this situation have no choice but to raise the cash for an engineer to call and rectify the fault immediately, or try to tolerate the noise and possible aggrovation from neighbours, especially during night hours.

Of course, users who have alarms under service agreement can have a call within 4 hours to fix the problem but what about those who are not? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users the information to learn how to at least silence the alarm themselves? Would it be a fair deal to offer these users an installation manual in anticipation of such a fault with their alarm?


Theres a valid reason why users should have access to their installation manual. But what about all your loyal customers who pay each and every year your service charge? Would it be a fair deal to give someone this information when he thinks his domestic security doesn't warrant a professional touch? Would it be also fair to hand out technical information to this person giving him the means to compromise all of your similarly installed systems of your loyal customers if opportunities arise?
You maintain their alarm. You look after them. You give out possible sensitive documentation that can compromise your loyal customers alarm to someone who feels that the security of their premises is better in their own hands rather than yours, the alarm company.

I'm all for letting joe public having the best deal but could you guarantee that such requested information was being used for personal means?

Sorry. I've gone on a bit there. I think installation manuals shouldn't be handed out to the public. A possible compromise would be say 5 years after the requested control equipment has been removed from production by their manufacturers. But with many manufacturers using a standard menu tree across their range, I'm sure even discontinued manuals will contain information thats relevent to current equipment available including the more higher end units.

Tony

[Service Engineer]

Regardless of what the consumer wants, as far as this site is concerned our hands are tied, because of threats of legal action by certain manufacturers we cannot be seen to be distributing engineer information to alarm users.

When this site was 1st started I made every manual available to anyone that wanted it, all they had to do was ask, as its my opinion that a customer should not be held to ransom by its security installer. Indeed if the customer feels he has the required knowledge to look after and maintain his own system, then I cant see any reason why he shouldn`t be allowed to do so, but his insurance company might. In fact a lot of systems are not very complicated at all and the engineer instructions would be very easy to follow even for a layman.

It is my belief that manufacturers and installers dont want this information made available because the public would see just how easy most alarm systems are to silence, disable and default.

[j.paul]

If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself.

If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals? Maybe people would see how easy it was to fix their cars and see how much a rip off a garage was...

Quote

but you can buy a Haynes manual (or equivalent)

These are not supplied by the manufacturer! and you have got to buy one

So what's the difference between a alarm panel and a TV etc, why should one have a Engineers manual and one not have a Engineers manual...

I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer...

jpaul

[j.paul]

Quote

but you can get the manuals from sony on the net though

But can you get them from Sony?

http://www.sony.co.u...instmanuals.asp

It dosen't say you can have the Engineers manuals..
But maybe I'am looking in the wrong place...

jpaul

[Service Engineer]

JPaul I think your missing the point slightly.

Quote

If you go and buy a new TV, do you get the Engineers manuals? Try phoning Sony up and asking for a Engineers manual so you can fix the TV yourself.

No you dont get the service manual, but you get a user manual explaining in great detail all of the features of the product you have purchased.
You cant compare an engineer manual for fixing a TV to a an alarm engineers manual for programming an alarm, and if manufacturers had a Servicing and repairs manual for their products then i dont think you`d get one of those either.

Quote

If you buy a new car, try asking the manufacturer if you can have the full Engineers manuals, just in case you need to fix it... Why don't they give out Engineers manuals?

Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.

My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it.

[Red Fox UK]

Service Engineer, on May 22 2004, 10:46 PM, said:

My point is that an Engineer manual simply tells a person how to program his alarm system, it does not tell them how to repair it.

Couldnt of put it better myself!!

Users should not have any installer/engineer manuals!
Users should have the cut version normally called the User guide!

Now, I wonder why the called a USER guide a user guide? And, I wonder why they called an ENGINEER guide an engineer guide?

Warren

[CompostCORNER]

I'm sure in todays modern tecnological world, someone determined enough to want to have an engineer manual can find what he wants with enough persistence. My hobby for example. I am part of a scene that recreates real existing and long gone fruit machines that can be played on the PC. The manufacturers and the trade don't help us at all but we can find almost all the resources we need to recreate a fruit machine by looking in the right places on the internet. Persistence does pay as long as you are patient.

I'm sure the point here is wether these forums offer engineer information to whoever asks. Me personally, I'd say no. Simply to avoid all the hassles that may come from providing such a service. Like I said, if you look hard enough, the manuals can be sourced somewhere. All this site will do in providing a service of offering manuals to the public is create an easy method to gain information that is difficult to get. I reckon such a service would also be open to abuse by those who want nothing else but an easy source to download anything and everything available for their own advantage. Can you see 'Mr Smith' just downloading a manual for his Menvier TS500? i'm sure he'll soon be back for more if only to see how other alarms fare.

Tony

[j.paul]

Quote

Another off the point example, engineer manuals DO NOT tell anyone how to repair there alarm system, they simply explain how to install and programme it.

Hi Dave

I think you have answered your own question, the engineer/install manual is designed for the person (whether it be a DIY'er or alarm engineer) who installed the system, its not designed for the end user...(unless they installed it themselves)

The point I was tiring to make was that most end users don't want a engineer manual because they need to charge some programming, they want it because something has gone wrong with the system and they want to repair it..

I think this is something the manufacturer of the panels need to sort out, do things like entry/exit timers need to be in engineer programming or could they be changed from user programming..etc

It would be nice to see what lads on the group that work for a manufacturer think about this.

Whats the view's of SSAIB/NSI on giving engineer manuals to end users?

As I said,

Quote

"I don't think there is an easy answer to this, but if a manufacturer thinks their panels is easy for the end user to install/program etc, then its up to them to supply the manuals to the end user, not the installer..."

jpaul