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Engineer Manuals
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Service Engineer
, Oct 13 2003 04:31 PM
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#22 Guest_dale_*
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Posted 14 October 2003 - 10:46 PM
I think weve exhausted this one... lets agree to disagree as otherwise we will just 
each others corners till the cows come home.
Dale
each others corners till the cows come home. Dale
#23
morph
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Posted 15 October 2003 - 10:07 AM
Good move on the manual front. Peters right in saying that most companies standardise on one panel/ type of equipment. If we do take over an obscure panel or attend a fault, a quick call to the office or another engineer would normally help.
To help the small installers on the site what about having a full list of manufacturers technical helplines in the protected area.
But just as a point of interest on the Health and Safety Front, we shouldn't be puting any paperwork inside the panel, as it is a fire risk. Even if its in a self adhesive wallet. The wallet/paperwork could slip/detach and cause a fire.
If my memory serves me correctly both Nacoss and the BSIA issued a warning against this practice and the prefered method was to fit a a lockable box adjacent to the panel or buy one of ACT's plastic document boxes.
And as to obtaining the password for the protected areas who do we go about this.
Colin.
To help the small installers on the site what about having a full list of manufacturers technical helplines in the protected area.
But just as a point of interest on the Health and Safety Front, we shouldn't be puting any paperwork inside the panel, as it is a fire risk. Even if its in a self adhesive wallet. The wallet/paperwork could slip/detach and cause a fire.
If my memory serves me correctly both Nacoss and the BSIA issued a warning against this practice and the prefered method was to fit a a lockable box adjacent to the panel or buy one of ACT's plastic document boxes.
And as to obtaining the password for the protected areas who do we go about this.
Colin.
#24
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Posted 15 October 2003 - 06:30 PM
I don't know how I feel on the subject after reading all the different views above. It has always been my beleif that the engineer manual should be kept by the engineer and user manual given to the user. After all, thats why they are two different manuals.
I don't think that anyone could be held accountable for an end user injuring himself by fiddling with the alarm because there are all types of mains sockets, switches and even consumer units available to the public at B&Q which do pose more of a hazard.
I totally agree with the car manual mentioned above. I think that Ademco have took this view too because only the user manual is supplied with the Galaxy panel when bought. Therefore, the user has no right to this because it was never supplied with the equipment.
Maybe in the future alarm systems will give the user more control over the alarm system. Without going too far into the programming they may be able to change certain aspects of its operation to suit changing circumstances. The keypad could act as a user friendly interface between customer and alarms panel guiding them through different set ups and even informing why something can not be done.
I don't think that anyone could be held accountable for an end user injuring himself by fiddling with the alarm because there are all types of mains sockets, switches and even consumer units available to the public at B&Q which do pose more of a hazard.
I totally agree with the car manual mentioned above. I think that Ademco have took this view too because only the user manual is supplied with the Galaxy panel when bought. Therefore, the user has no right to this because it was never supplied with the equipment.
Maybe in the future alarm systems will give the user more control over the alarm system. Without going too far into the programming they may be able to change certain aspects of its operation to suit changing circumstances. The keypad could act as a user friendly interface between customer and alarms panel guiding them through different set ups and even informing why something can not be done.
Service Engineer
My opinions may not reflect those of my employer, managers, colleagues, customers, friends, family or pet rabbit.
My opinions may not reflect those of my employer, managers, colleagues, customers, friends, family or pet rabbit.
#25 Guest_Affinity_*
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Posted 15 October 2003 - 07:37 PM
would you guys like our opinion on this as manufactureres if I ask in the morning???I can try and find out the legal implecations too.
Do you remember me being asked by Dinefwr about doing a CQR Forum on the CQR site??????? It was due to legal implecations that I could not go ahead with it.
As manufacturers we cant risk having installers or engineers giving out information on a site under our name and it being seen as our reply or advice incase it is incorrect or the questioner injures himself due to a response from the site.
It is deemed ok to be on an unafilliated site such as this where Steve has openly stated at the beginning that the site takes no responsibility for advice given or taken.
Speaking on my own behalf I thought qualified electricians were legally responsible for equipment if they saw it was unsafe and took no action ....... if that is the case and I stand corrected if wrong (its just that I know my other half is in his job), is it wise to give out engineering manuals to the public?
Anway as I said I will check where we as manufacturers stand on this.
Do you remember me being asked by Dinefwr about doing a CQR Forum on the CQR site??????? It was due to legal implecations that I could not go ahead with it.
As manufacturers we cant risk having installers or engineers giving out information on a site under our name and it being seen as our reply or advice incase it is incorrect or the questioner injures himself due to a response from the site.
It is deemed ok to be on an unafilliated site such as this where Steve has openly stated at the beginning that the site takes no responsibility for advice given or taken.
Speaking on my own behalf I thought qualified electricians were legally responsible for equipment if they saw it was unsafe and took no action ....... if that is the case and I stand corrected if wrong (its just that I know my other half is in his job), is it wise to give out engineering manuals to the public?
Anway as I said I will check where we as manufacturers stand on this.
#26 Guest_Peter James_*
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Posted 15 October 2003 - 07:58 PM
Colin
You were correct about the Nacoss warning reference the paperwork in panels, and all of our engineers are aware that it could be a fire risk and keep the paperwork away from the hot bits. (common sense really)
Although there never has been (and Nacoss will back this statement up) any reported incidences of fires or smoke damage etc caused by paperwork left in panels.
Pete
You were correct about the Nacoss warning reference the paperwork in panels, and all of our engineers are aware that it could be a fire risk and keep the paperwork away from the hot bits. (common sense really)
Although there never has been (and Nacoss will back this statement up) any reported incidences of fires or smoke damage etc caused by paperwork left in panels.
Pete
Edited by Peter James, 15 October 2003 - 07:59 PM.
#27
Service Engineer
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Posted 15 October 2003 - 08:21 PM
Yes Linda please enquire as to you companies position regarding any Engineer information and legalities please.
I already know another major manufacturers stance on this subject, lets see if yours is simillar
I already know another major manufacturers stance on this subject, lets see if yours is simillar
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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
#28
morph
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Posted 16 October 2003 - 10:31 AM
HI Linda,
CQR's opinion would be helpful along with any other manufacturers out there who may be observing and not contributing!!
It is an issue that has various implications to the installer.
Colin.
CQR's opinion would be helpful along with any other manufacturers out there who may be observing and not contributing!!
It is an issue that has various implications to the installer.
Colin.
#29
paul fae kings
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Posted 16 October 2003 - 09:05 PM
dont know if im right or wrong on this,but inever have & probably never will leave an engineers manual with a customer.
Just my personal opinion though.
Just my personal opinion though.
#30
mr silcox
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Posted 17 October 2003 - 06:59 PM
watching the manual requests over the last 6 months
they tend to be manly asking for "job on the side panels"
like ade ,a1 etc most of these had insaller insruction and user in the same book
i can't see a problem with these they don't want to pay for a skilled alarm eng.
and to be honest do you really want these as customers ????
but as for eng. it sometimes hard to get a manual for something old (and most company only keep the most up to date stuff)
i would be handy to know which of us are or run alarm eng. compans (without giving to much away )
perhaps dave could sort something like this??
they tend to be manly asking for "job on the side panels"
like ade ,a1 etc most of these had insaller insruction and user in the same book
i can't see a problem with these they don't want to pay for a skilled alarm eng.
and to be honest do you really want these as customers ????
but as for eng. it sometimes hard to get a manual for something old (and most company only keep the most up to date stuff)
i would be handy to know which of us are or run alarm eng. compans (without giving to much away )
perhaps dave could sort something like this??
#31
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Posted 11 February 2004 - 07:11 PM
All Forum users should take note ofthe above Discussion.
And Dale did you ever find how we stood legally..?
And Dale did you ever find how we stood legally..?
Quote
Can find the legal stuff out for you Wed, as im installing structured cabling into a solicitors, so will quickly ask one of em.
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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
#32 Guest_dale_*
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Posted 12 February 2004 - 11:50 AM
Well legally here goes:
Manuals are not public domain and are legally copyrighted by the respective parties (ie the manufacturers). This copyright lasts for 100 year from the date the first pulication was made (so it pretty much covers the entire lifecycle of any alarm system).
If we send alarm manuals to people or hold alarm manuals on a computer system this is breach of copyright as we are not allowed to reproduce in any way (including digital scanning) any of the manuls, unless we have the prior permission of the copyright holder.
Unfortunately just because a manufacturer puts the manual on there website this does not mean we can take the manual and distribute it without there permission, even though it would appear to be public domain, it isnt.
As for the advice/recomendations, if the advice is free then we are unlikely to get prosecuted. But we must have a disclaimer on the site, as if we get it wrong and we are telling people we are "proffesionals" then we may get into trouble.
My friend will take a look at the site later this afternoon to see if he can find any other legal issues we should be considering.
Dale
Manuals are not public domain and are legally copyrighted by the respective parties (ie the manufacturers). This copyright lasts for 100 year from the date the first pulication was made (so it pretty much covers the entire lifecycle of any alarm system).
If we send alarm manuals to people or hold alarm manuals on a computer system this is breach of copyright as we are not allowed to reproduce in any way (including digital scanning) any of the manuls, unless we have the prior permission of the copyright holder.
Unfortunately just because a manufacturer puts the manual on there website this does not mean we can take the manual and distribute it without there permission, even though it would appear to be public domain, it isnt.
As for the advice/recomendations, if the advice is free then we are unlikely to get prosecuted. But we must have a disclaimer on the site, as if we get it wrong and we are telling people we are "proffesionals" then we may get into trouble.
My friend will take a look at the site later this afternoon to see if he can find any other legal issues we should be considering.
Dale
#33
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Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:33 PM
BUMP.........Just thought I`d top this topic to make it easier for new members to find.
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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
#34 Guest_Edwards_*
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Posted 13 March 2004 - 08:40 PM
My opinion is. If its a maintained system then do not give the user a engineers manual as they could cause problems for the maintenance company. but if its not maintained, its just installed then give them a copy as its there system and if they create probelms its there own fault, and will have to pay for it to be repaired.
#35 Guest_RICHL_*
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Posted 13 March 2004 - 09:41 PM
I cant see any reason at all why an end user should know engineer manuals exist or expect to have one. It all comes down to quality of service.
If an alteration needs to be done to the program this should be done by someone with training and experience, the details noted on a call form and then signed by both.
If you give a user an engineers manual it seems to me you are telling the customer to look after it themselves and not bother you.
If an alteration needs to be done to the program this should be done by someone with training and experience, the details noted on a call form and then signed by both.
If you give a user an engineers manual it seems to me you are telling the customer to look after it themselves and not bother you.
#36 Guest_kanabb_*
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Posted 21 March 2004 - 10:22 PM
I am an electrician by trade and have just finished building my home. I bought and installed an aritech system. Installation was not a problem and neither was the initial set up. However i recieved no manual and as such am limited in what i can do ( ie inhibit a zone ). I think as long as the end user is not on a maintenance and monitoring contract they should be left the manuals. Qualified persons and i would consider myself such, should get all the info they need when they purchase a system. Most of the info for mine was removed from the box. I just had the bare bones to go with.
#37
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Posted 22 March 2004 - 07:57 PM
The Aritech range of panels i would say is one of the more complex and professional range of panels and you tend to find you dont get the engineer manuals with them. There will be a few good reasons for that, the main one being the manual maybe around 40+ pages thick and to provide one with every panel would'nt be cost effective.
Also the manuals will be issued to security companies by the manufactures as they need them, and they will most likely pay for them. No doubt if you contacted Aritech they would let you have one and probably charge you for the pleasure also. I would agree that you are a competent person but most people aint and you would'nt suggest any of your clients open up the sockets or consumer unit and try changing things.
Also the manuals will be issued to security companies by the manufactures as they need them, and they will most likely pay for them. No doubt if you contacted Aritech they would let you have one and probably charge you for the pleasure also. I would agree that you are a competent person but most people aint and you would'nt suggest any of your clients open up the sockets or consumer unit and try changing things.
#38
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Posted 04 May 2004 - 03:59 PM
Any more views on this Subject, seems the result of the poll has changed somewhat..
Engineer-----Provide them if Asked [ 22 ] [39.29%]
Engineer-----Do not provide them at all [ 15 ] [26.79%]
User----------Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s [ 2 ] [3.57%]
User----------Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual [ 15 ] [26.79%]
Un-decided -[ 2 ] [3.57%]
Those in favour now equals almost 70%....?
Engineer-----Provide them if Asked [ 22 ] [39.29%]
Engineer-----Do not provide them at all [ 15 ] [26.79%]
User----------Im happy to leave the serious stuff to the pro`s [ 2 ] [3.57%]
User----------Its my Alarm, I have the right to a manual [ 15 ] [26.79%]
Un-decided -[ 2 ] [3.57%]
Those in favour now equals almost 70%....?
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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
#39
DGMarsden
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Posted 04 May 2004 - 05:03 PM
I feel that if someone felt compotent enough to carry out the small change and new the potential risks involved then it would be okay for them to receive the manual.
Some distributors even offer them on their websites.
Dave
Some distributors even offer them on their websites.
Dave
#40
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Posted 04 May 2004 - 05:50 PM
It all depends on whether their Are there any manufacturers that wont try to sue me if i offer this service.
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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)
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