JohnInStockie Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share Posted December 20, 2008 OK I think from what you have said that the red is positive and black is switched negative, in other words if you apply 12 volts across red and black the sonder activates, test this theory by applying 12 volts directly from the battery. Yes the sounder is permanently active (all modes) with just black and red connected to the B+ and B- If the sounder works when you do this then connect red to B+ and the black to BA.Using your multimeter test resistance across blue and yellow and report back! Did this, and I can only detect a 0.01V across either of these vs B-, and nothing against B+ or BA or each other. Note now the sounder does not activate in any mode. Thanks very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Yes the sounder is permanently active (all modes) with just black and red connected to the B+ and B-Did this, and I can only detect a 0.01V across either of these vs B-, and nothing against B+ or BA or each other. Note now the sounder does not activate in any mode. Thanks very much OK I think we are getting somewhere. You need to measure resistance not voltage across blue and yellow with the wires disconnected from the panel. I suspect that the reason the sounder is not working now is because the panle is not setting. How are you actually testing the sounder now? You will need to defeat the panel tamper (assuming you have the lid off) and you will need to put a link between B- and BT. Set the system then try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpye Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Back in the days of a 4 wire bell (generic term, we call all sounders 'bells') they would normally be wired, I have done this to give you a better understanding of what you are looking at. Red > 12v + (positive) from panel to bell - Hold off - If removed should ring bell on standby battery if fitted & working also linked to the Strobe positive if fitted Black > 12v - (negative) from panel to bell - Hold off - If removed should ring bell on standby battery if fitted & working Blue > 12v - (negative) from panel to bell to ring the bell in an alarm condition also linked to the Strobe negative if fitted to flash it Yellow > 12v - (negative) from bell to panel. Anti tamper return from bell to panel The colours used in this example were fairly common but could have used in any combination to do the same job I would add though that as the sounder is 10 years old its battery has seen better days and should really be replaced. It will not be a battery such as the one you have in the panel but a special sort soldered to what we call a 'bell module' where all the wires from the panel / bell / strobe / anti-tamper switch are connected. It would be much better to get a new sounder now while you are at it rather than have to do it all in a rush in the near future because something has gone wrong. I'm sure you could find a longer ladder somewhere, you know it makes sense. Good luck & Happy Christmas, magpye Someone told me I was ignorant and apathetic, I don't know what that means, nor do I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInStockie Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share Posted December 20, 2008 OK I think we are getting somewhere.You need to measure resistance not voltage across blue and yellow with the wires disconnected from the panel. I suspect that the reason the sounder is not working now is because the panle is not setting. How are you actually testing the sounder now? You will need to defeat the panel tamper (assuming you have the lid off) and you will need to put a link between B- and BT. Set the system then try it. Right I have found the following... No resistance (multimeter returns 1 at every Ohmage setting) between the blue and yellow and either blue or yellow and any other bell connector. I used a piece of wood to keep the panel tamper switch down, and looped a cable between BT and B-. Then reconnected the battery. It went straight into User Mode, no faults. I armed the system. It does the countdown, and then although the panel indicates armed, it doesnt go off. Then 3 minutes later as I was writing this, It worked!! Could it be that there is an internal countdown after setting of say 5 minutes before arming?? If so then BRILLIANT!!! Thanks very much LawandOrder. I am going to fully replace the cover now in engineer mode and try arming the system, will be back in 2 mins. Thanks john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Right I have found the following...No resistance (multimeter returns 1 at every Ohmage setting) between the blue and yellow and either blue or yellow and any other bell connector. I used a piece of wood to keep the panel tamper switch down, and looped a cable between BT and B-. Then reconnected the battery. It went straight into User Mode, no faults. I armed the system. It does the countdown, and then although the panel indicates armed, it doesnt go off. Then 3 minutes later as I was writing this, It worked!! Could it be that there is an internal countdown after setting of say 5 minutes before arming?? If so then BRILLIANT!!! Thanks very much LawandOrder. I am going to fully replace the cover now in engineer mode and try arming the system, will be back in 2 mins. Thanks john It's not supposed to go when it's armed it's supposed to go off when it's triggered. Set the system, wait until the exit tone stops then trigger the system by activating a PIR. The fact that it works at all means that the sounder is connected correctly albeit without any tamper protection, we need to work on that next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInStockie Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share Posted December 20, 2008 Success!!! Yes you've cracked it. Thank you very much indeed!!! The combination of holding down the panel tamper switch, putting a jumper between the Bell Tamper (BT) to the and the Bell 0V (B-), and having Red on the 12V (B+) and the black on the Bell Trigger (BA) works exactly as it should do (although it means no tamper protection). John Now for the vocaliser, mike and speakers [RE the lack of tamper protection on the sounder, what would you suggest (buy another more modern sounder? Should I get one with its own Battery supply?) If I were to do this, I would probably have to ask a prof. installer to do it as I dont have the ladder necessary, nor the head for heights ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawandorder Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Success!!!Yes you've cracked it. Thank you very much indeed!!! The combination of holding down the panel tamper switch, putting a jumper between the Bell Tamper (BT) to the and the Bell 0V (B-), and having Red on the 12V (B+) and the black on the Bell Trigger (BA) works exactly as it should do (although it means no tamper protection). John Now for the vocaliser, mike and speakers [RE the lack of tamper protection on the sounder, what would you suggest (buy another more modern sounder? Should I get one with its own Battery supply?) If I were to do this, I would probably have to ask a prof. installer to do it as I dont have the ladder necessary, nor the head for heights :S] Well I'm glad you now have it working, I'm exhausted! lol Yes to be honest a new sounder is highly recommended but try removing the link you placed between BT and B- and connect the remaining 2 wires from your sounder in place of the link. If the system still sets great, if it doesn't try reversing the 2 wires. If you can get the system to set with these 2 wires connected you will have some tamper protection to the outside sounder and although a new sounder would be better connecting the existing wires will be better than leaving it with no protection at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Glad you have the bell working but as i said before it has no tamper so removing the bell cover would not set the system off! Mr burglar could open the bell up and de activate it! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInStockie Posted December 20, 2008 Author Share Posted December 20, 2008 Glad you have the bell working but as i said before it has no tamper so removing the bell cover would not set the system off!Mr burglar could open the bell up and de activate it! And that's a very good point! I'm not too worried, as the bell box is 20+ feet up a wall, but its still on my "to do" list So unless he's related to spiderman, I should be ok (along with the security lights and cameras). At the end of the day, there is no alarm that will stop a determined thief, its just degrees of deterence. If they are determined to get in and steal, regardless of the noise and damage they do, then an alarm isnt going to stop them, only the police showing up would do that, and thats so unlikely (even if I phoned them and told them that the burglars were there - not because they dont want too, just under resourced!). guys John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarm Protection Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 And that's a very good point!I'm not too worried, as the bell box is 20+ feet up a wall, but its still on my "to do" list So unless he's related to spiderman, I should be ok (along with the security lights and cameras). At the end of the day, there is no alarm that will stop a determined thief, its just degrees of deterence. If they are determined to get in and steal, regardless of the noise and damage they do, then an alarm isnt going to stop them, only the police showing up would do that, and thats so unlikely (even if I phoned them and told them that the burglars were there - not because they dont want too, just under resourced!). guys John I was only suggesting and you would be surprised at how Mr thief will get into a building. Iv replaced loads of bells that are high up on a house that have been smashed with a hammer. An alarm will not stop someone trying to break in but i would always have a tamper on a bellbox as this is the first deterrent they see. Its up to you but spiderman was a good guy but the local ned is not! You have cameras but if local ned hides his face....gets the bell...takes what he wants from your house...your cameras are useless. Only trying to help ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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