JohnCunningham Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi all. I have been trying to fault find an earth fault that has occurred on a alarm system I look after. The panel is a menvier MV400. It isn't that old and is a quality install. It has just started to show an earth fault flashing light and beeping on the panel. Nothing has happened in the property to alter the wiring or detectors, no leaks etc. Everything looks fine. Don't really want to strip it down to do an insulation resistance test as I refuse to believe a cable has just broken down. Therfore I can only assume there is another culprit. In any ones experience what else can cause the same fault? Detector failure? board fault? back up battery is 3.4Ah which is down on the 4Ah required .... sometimes that can throw a wobbly on some cts but earth fault?? Any ideas anyone? Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerabloke Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 IMO i would start first with disconnecting the bell. Then removing zones. Eucam Security Systems 0845 4630 746 www.eucam.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cerberus NI Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Is it not an MF400 - conventional panel??There should be another fault light flashing telling you what circuit the earth fault is on (power circuits,zones,sounder etc),check the manual for fault finding solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCunningham Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 Is it not an MF400 - conventional panel??There should be another fault light flashing telling you what circuit the earth fault is on (power circuits,zones,sounder etc),check the manual for fault finding solutions. It is a conventional panel but the only lights that are flashing are the fault and earth fault lights. Unfortunately no zones lit. I did start to disconnect zones and bells one at a time but didn't make a great difference so decided to call it a day so I could get the manual download. Which kindly says if you get an earth fault call your service company. I guess a day of fault finding is due. unfortunately a 4 storey HMO with about 30 odd detectors, sounders in each room, indicator lights etc etc. Hoping someone would say... I bet thats a ....... Has anyone had experience of anything other than cable breakdowns causing an earth fault? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breff Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Once had a site where the sparks had wired the earths into the yellow phase, we searched for ages for cable faults until one of our guys got a shock from a chain suspending a light............................Nice!!!! The opinions I express are mine and are usually correct! (Except when I'm wrong)(which I'm not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 It is a conventional panel but the only lights that are flashing are the fault and earth fault lights. Unfortunately no zones lit. I did start to disconnect zones and bells one at a time but didn't make a great difference so decided to call it a day so I could get the manual download. Which kindly says if you get an earth fault call your service company.I guess a day of fault finding is due. unfortunately a 4 storey HMO with about 30 odd detectors, sounders in each room, indicator lights etc etc. Hoping someone would say... I bet thats a ....... Has anyone had experience of anything other than cable breakdowns causing an earth fault? Thanks, Disconnecting zones will simply cause more faults which will stop you locating the fault you are looking for. I can't picture that panel in my mind but here is what I would do: (Assuming you can't gen an installation manual as there will be info there as to how to trace which circuit is faulty, TBH it's only the cheapy panels that normally have this global type fault not Menvier...) Look at the PCB to see if there are some more "hidden" LED indicators to narrow down the fault, you may have a zone LED for faults... Next find the value and/or type of EOL unit fitted to the bells and sounders, either link all the zones/sounders out at the panel with EOL devices (which should clear the fault) then reconnect the circuits one at a time to trace the faulty one. Or just link out one at a time leaving the panel time to clear the fault. It is sometimes possible to narrow down the faulty circuit by disconnecting all the earth wires to the outgoing zones/bells and reconnecting one at a time to track down the fault but this is hit and miss. Over the years I have seen faulty detectors give this fault but more often it will be something like a trapped wire in a base. Good hunting! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCunningham Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 Disconnecting zones will simply cause more faults which will stop you locating the fault you are looking for.I can't picture that panel in my mind but here is what I would do: (Assuming you can't gen an installation manual as there will be info there as to how to trace which circuit is faulty, TBH it's only the cheapy panels that normally have this global type fault not Menvier...) Look at the PCB to see if there are some more "hidden" LED indicators to narrow down the fault, you may have a zone LED for faults... Next find the value and/or type of EOL unit fitted to the bells and sounders, either link all the zones/sounders out at the panel with EOL devices (which should clear the fault) then reconnect the circuits one at a time to trace the faulty one. Or just link out one at a time leaving the panel time to clear the fault. It is sometimes possible to narrow down the faulty circuit by disconnecting all the earth wires to the outgoing zones/bells and reconnecting one at a time to track down the fault but this is hit and miss. Over the years I have seen faulty detectors give this fault but more often it will be something like a trapped wire in a base. Good hunting! Thanks Lugsey, Panel manual very **** and no help beyond common sense. Unfortunately didn't have EOL resistors of right size with me ( Always said I would make a list and get a EOL kit together for these situations) disconnected CPCs of circuits one by one till they were all out and powered down then back up and fault still there. Only removing supply earth cleared it temporarily till reconnected. No zone lights,only a fault light and earth fault light. No other indicators. Must say the menvier detectors I removed to check were a bugger to put back on. There seemed to be a right way and a 98% right way which was wrong and jammed like hell. Are you saying that you have experienced pinched cables that have given earth faults over time? This fault just appeared in the middle of the night. thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Thanks Lugsey,Panel manual very **** and no help beyond common sense. Unfortunately didn't have EOL resistors of right size with me ( Always said I would make a list and get a EOL kit together for these situations) disconnected CPCs of circuits one by one till they were all out and powered down then back up and fault still there. Only removing supply earth cleared it temporarily till reconnected. No zone lights,only a fault light and earth fault light. No other indicators. Must say the menvier detectors I removed to check were a bugger to put back on. There seemed to be a right way and a 98% right way which was wrong and jammed like hell. Are you saying that you have experienced pinched cables that have given earth faults over time? This fault just appeared in the middle of the night. thanks, Yes I have known faults "appear" after years of trouble free operation, it happens! You need to find out if it's in the panel don't forget, that's why disconnecting all external wiring first and clearing the panels faults is the best way to go. You can use your multimeter on the external wiring, that works as well? Paul. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cerberus NI Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Disconnecting zones will simply cause more faults which will stop you locating the fault you are looking for.I can't picture that panel in my mind but here is what I would do: (Assuming you can't gen an installation manual as there will be info there as to how to trace which circuit is faulty, TBH it's only the cheapy panels that normally have this global type fault not Menvier...) Look at the PCB to see if there are some more "hidden" LED indicators to narrow down the fault, you may have a zone LED for faults... Next find the value and/or type of EOL unit fitted to the bells and sounders, either link all the zones/sounders out at the panel with EOL devices (which should clear the fault) then reconnect the circuits one at a time to trace the faulty one. Or just link out one at a time leaving the panel time to clear the fault. It is sometimes possible to narrow down the faulty circuit by disconnecting all the earth wires to the outgoing zones/bells and reconnecting one at a time to track down the fault but this is hit and miss. Over the years I have seen faulty detectors give this fault but more often it will be something like a trapped wire in a base. Good hunting! If you disconnect all the feild wiring and reset the earth fault should clear,Yes,you will get multiple other faults but as you reinstate each one the earth fault should return. It's the panel with the five keys that you press down on like piano keys Luggs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luggsey Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 If you disconnect all the feild wiring and reset the earth fault should clear,Yes,you will get multiple other faults but as you reinstate each one the earth fault should return.It's the panel with the five keys that you press down on like piano keys Luggs The one with the smoked plastic door and the isolate relay switch? Yuk! I have know panels "ignore" earth faults while a zone fault/sounder fault is active. That's why I advisded clearing the panels faults before anything else, it may well work the way you describe so it's worth trying? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is like a box of chocolates, some bugger always gets the nice ones! My Amateur Radio Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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