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ZippyCat

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I work as a building services consultant and am currently reviewing the approximate cost per point for an intruder alarm system installed in commercial premises for pre tender purposes. At present I work on approximately
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Sorry if I have breached the forum rules, moderators please feel free to delete this post if necessary.

Your post and query are ok to stay, but I will request that any member wanting to answer this post mentioning prices please do so by PersonnalMessage. I will add though that I think you should give thought to SecBoy's post in that the grading of the system determined after a risk assesment, will determine an instalers cost.

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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Sorry, but since when has the security / cost of a installation been down the the consultant to determine. There are no two systems the same even on next door buildings the system are designed around protection of the insurance companies risk, we have been asked on occassions to quote from plans based on the magic

www.nova-security.co.uk

www.nsiapproved.co.uk

No PMs please unless i know you or you are using this board with your proper name.

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we have clauses in our specifications as well, including conduit, adverse conditions and the like, not to mention the wiring distances and routing spec'd. I find it not a real world application to spec a commercial system based on an arbritrary number, unless you're putting the job out to bid for subcontract.

I find a better system would be installed if the standards were clearly written, as well as an apples to apples comparison, not limited to what grade the alarm was subject to.

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We determine the location of all detectors / equipment and the standard of installation methods to which the installer will adhere, we don

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Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer)

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Zippycat Hi! please do not be put off by what may seem to you to be a negative response to your question,you have raised a very interesting topic within our industry relating to the relationship between the consultant/their customer and the security company supplying the installation and maintenance of a security system.

One of the important points which has been highlighted in the small number of replies so far is that I do not have the impression that your method as a consultant has evolved to take into account the new regs which we as service supplyers have been forced to adopt since Oct 2005? or am I mistaken?you stated that you do not ask service providers to design a security system as "You" have already carried out that task! and you only require the service provider to carry out the installation within a set budgetary cost!however has this design been carried out within the EN50131 guidelines? If it has not then it raises the question of weather your design and advice to your customer is valid! If it does not comply to EN50131 then in theory it would be a non compliance for insurance as well as non compliance with NSI and SSAIB.

The security industry and the controls which govern how WE carry out our bussiness is being overhauled and no one within the industry can ignore it on the long term,although this disscussion was started with a question mainly concerned with your point pricing recomendation to your customer it has raised a more fundemental query as to weather you as a consultancy need to adapt your methods to keep up with the changes effecting us all,I do not mean to direct any form of critism towards you but hope that you see my points as helpful! I suspect that the situation we are discussing is wide spread due to lack of information and perhapes a certain level of appathy in the need to comply,looking at the situation in a positive manner if all I have mentioned has a ring of truth about it your future evolvement may well put you ahead of your competition in giving your customer the necessary updated service which they require.

I hope this has been a helpful input to the topic if you would like to talk more please continue with the postings or perhapes PM me.

Regards

Paul.

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Paul,

Thank you for your response. You are indeed correct that we are now a little unsure of precisely what our role as consultants fully involves with the new regulations. We are still trying to get to grips with some of the technicalities involved. One thing I would like to make clear however, the price per point is not designed to say the installer must adhere to these parameters, but more for setting an approximate budget at the start of the project. If the costs go over and above the initial assessment to fully comply with the regs, then so be it. It

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Zippycat Hi! Got you! now I see where your coming from,I think the best way to confirm If your cost per point is accurate will be to look at past quotations from security installers given a known number of points and calculate an average point cost,this will be quite simple if you have a good working relationship with a systems supplyer already because they can supply the info you require from historical work however you will need to consider customer confidentiality.

If you use this method for obtaining an average cost per point it will be taking into account the installers responsibilities in compliance with the new EN regs,if you do have a good relationship with a service provider you could even give them a representative number of systems with various detection requirements and ask for a quote to supply and install for each which would then allow you to calculate the point cost over the average,this would remove the guess work and give you an accurate calculation!.

I have suggested the above because it seems you have one particular client with similar building requirements which appear to be repeated across multiple sites and this will give the most accurate calculation for them.

Regards

Paul.

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Guest Cerberus NI
So you risk assess each premises yourselves and determine where each device should go.? Then I sincerely hope your fully qualified to do so. Sorry but I've done a few of these pre-specked jobs and each has left gaping holes in the premises security, most specifiers have taken note of any advice given, but rarely has it been implemented.

Also is the above price you mention fully inclusive of any monitoring costs, servicing and callouts for the 1st year.?

Nothing personal but would have to agree with dave on the specification of systems by consultants. I only work in the fire side and,whilst some are good to work for,most have their own ideas and interpretations of what the standards dictate.This goes right down to asking what catagory the design is to and being told "BS 5839"!

I'm not intimating that this is the case with your company,but just the general dread that occurs when I see "AS PER CONSULTANTS SPECIFICATION".

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Nothing personal but would have to agree with dave on the specification of systems by consultants. I only work in the fire side and,whilst some are good to work for,most have their own ideas and interpretations of what the standards dictate.This goes right down to asking what catagory the design is to and being told "BS 5839"!

I'm not intimating that this is the case with your company,but just the general dread that occurs when I see "AS PER CONSULTANTS SPECIFICATION".

Fire is a lot more complicated/ambiguous than intruder (to me anyway) so not suprised there.

Zak Tankel - Managing Director - Security First (UK) - www.securityfirst.uk.com

Disclaimer: Any comments or opinions expressed by me are my own as a member of the public and not of my employer or Company.

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I kike this,

I wont have to do any more risk assessment and the thought of getting sued if i get it wrong.

If the consultant tells us what methods to install to then why do we have the NSI & SSAIB.

With the new rules and if consultants are taking this route in specifiying, then its on your own back if you do a job for a consultant who says it a grade 2 and i want it installing like this, when you know it should be a grade 3 and you know what required to install a system correctly.

The consulants we do work for ask as to plan the system, and if we dont get the work they then pay us for the system design.

This is the point in time where the installer should identify their concerns to the consultant and address the situation accordingly.

Generally when a building is completed, we as consultants sign documentation and certificates (as the system designers) to take responsibility for the scheme. If something goes wrong, for instance someone dies in a fire as a direct result of our negligence, we can be prosecuted for manslaughter. If a scheme does not fully comply with BS 5839, the specialist will complete a compliance certificate for BS 5839 but highlight all exemptions and deviations. People need to realise that the systems are not thrown together in 5 minutes, but carefully planned and coordinated over many months with the relevant authorities. Yes an installer may look at a scheme and say it doesn

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Generally when a building is completed, we as consultants sign documentation and certificates (as the system designers) to take responsibility for the scheme.

I hope you have the right insurance for Intruder and with the new EN regs i think our going to find it alot more that installation companies wont work this way any more.

We have a consultant once who wanted a doctors surgery covered with a 8 zone panel and would not budge, we explained to the customer at a site meeting and the control equipment ended up as 63 zones.

I have heard that a consultant gets paid a bouns if the scheme that they are working on comes in under the budget is this true ?

www.nova-security.co.uk

www.nsiapproved.co.uk

No PMs please unless i know you or you are using this board with your proper name.

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I have heard that a consultant gets paid a bouns if the scheme that they are working on comes in under the budget is this true ?

No we get paid a standard fee for the job, or sometimes a basic fee plus a certain percentage of the installation costs (approximately 2%). For example, a socket may cost

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Guest Cerberus NI
This is the point in time where the installer should identify their concerns to the consultant and address the situation accordingly.

Generally when a building is completed, we as consultants sign documentation and certificates (as the system designers) to take responsibility for the scheme. If something goes wrong, for instance someone dies in a fire as a direct result of our negligence, we can be prosecuted for manslaughter. If a scheme does not fully comply with BS 5839, the specialist will complete a compliance certificate for BS 5839 but highlight all exemptions and deviations. People need to realise that the systems are not thrown together in 5 minutes, but carefully planned and coordinated over many months with the relevant authorities. Yes an installer may look at a scheme and say it doesn

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Well the installers will simply not get the lucrative jobs.

So are you saying you would rather employ a cowboy who will do it your way regardless of any regulations or recommendations from insurance companies or inspectorates that are in force?

Trade Member

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I don't know what everyone is getting so worked up about. There is nothing so much different to system design to the way it was before. Cost difference is nominal. And if these people had a flaw in their design and it was picked up by the quoting/installation company then the consultants are likely to adopt it. If they don't want to adopt it, and if it does not contravene the standards, then the system can still go in. People interpret risk in different ways. Just because the EN standards have come in are you telling me that in previous years when you have recommended particular coverage for a client they never refused due to whatever reason? As long you have covered yourself in your risk assessment then no problem. In reality not many companies jump up and down, have a screaming tantrum, spit out their dummy, climb out their pram and storm off taking the moral high ground. We are in business to make money and as long as the system complies then there shouldn't be a problem.

I know we are all quite territorial and think that no one can specify alarms apart from us super qualified people, but it is just not reality.

Zak Tankel - Managing Director - Security First (UK) - www.securityfirst.uk.com

Disclaimer: Any comments or opinions expressed by me are my own as a member of the public and not of my employer or Company.

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