antinode Posted June 11, 2006 Share Posted June 11, 2006 I'm quite surprised by the number of engineers that would supply an engineering manual on request, assuming those votes were from bona fide engineers. I personally think Ademco/Honeywell got it right with the Galaxy: No engineers manuals are included with the panel, which means there's nothing to over is there? If the customer is still adament that they want their engineer's manual, they can take it up with the manufacturer, who will tell them to get stuffed! Trade Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RICHL Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I'm quite surprised by the number of engineers that would supply an engineering manual on request, assuming those votes were from bona fide engineers. I personally think Ademco/Honeywell got it right with the Galaxy: No engineers manuals are included with the panel, which means there's nothing to over is there? If the customer is still adament that they want their engineer's manual, they can take it up with the manufacturer, who will tell them to get stuffed! QFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 The way I see it is black and white:The user gets the user manual. The installer keeps the installation manual. If the user installs the alarm he gets to keep the installer manual. No problem. If the user didn't install the alarm he doesn't get the manual and almost always that is in his best interests, because if he tries 'meddling' with the engineering without knowing what he is doing he could jeopardise his security. Paul Very Much Agreed! USER manual for the USER ENGINEER/INSTALL manual for the ENGINEER/INSTALLER. I respect everyones views but surely it isnt hard to see it is intended for the engineer, not the user. Ranger The above is my personal opinion and not that of my employer or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I respect everyones views but surely it isnt hard to see it is intended for the engineer, not the user. What people see\believe\think are very often different to what the actual interpretation\understanding of what they are seeing really is. Usually people will see an interpretation, or even come up with their own, and then believe that this is the only way and no amount of reasoning will change that. This is referred to as 'banging your head against a brick wall'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rjbsec Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 What people see\believe\think are very often different to what the actual interpretation\understanding of what they are seeing really is.Usually people will see an interpretation, or even come up with their own, and then believe that this is the only way and no amount of reasoning will change that. This is referred to as 'banging your head against a brick wall'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superpiper Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Oh jeys, get the popcorn out..................... You guys are in a tough place, but does it really matter? i mean, look at cars, haynes tell you how to strip a car down to the last bolt, and the last time i looked, cars kill more people than alarm systems. so figure. Ignoring the **** about jobs work etc boil it down to an issue of safety, because Model security/responsibillty/ownership rights etc are irrelevent, just like installing a gas fire......... you buy the fire, it gives you instruction on how to install it, but in bloody big letters, CORGI.........etc is printed on the front sheet. you have to give the installation manual to the owner because it is his property. peroiod. i suspect it is stuck in the freedom of info act as well that you cannot hide the engineers code either. I appreciate some of you get worried about the owner pissing about, but hey thats his right. This would be all solved if the manufacturers dictated the inst manual as the property of the company and is not part of the product, but thats not going to work is it? i myself walked into a shop and bought a fully proffesional system, and they saw fit to include the manual inthe box, so who are we to . and to the pillocks who carp o about giving work away, i read on your site, only 10ish percent of homes have an alarm. No bloody wonder if (like my neighbour) the security company places eng codes in the plc for servicing etc which are restricted from the user or owner, and effectively creating a one stop oligopaly. Read my post on irish instalation companies (did any one watch the death of a gangster on tv!!!!) and understand why DIY is a common practice. I bet you all have heard of the phrase 'do it right , do it yourself' By becoming more open and profesional, you will invite more and more work. Please don't assume people are too thick to understand a PLC or read logic circuits, and therefore not be capable of understanding installation manuals. To every engineer who does not agree to issuing instalation manuals, next time you buy a car, return the manual and have every issue dealt with by a 'TIME SERVED' mechanic. - expensive.. whats wrong with handing over the instalation manual? if i f*ck up my diy installation (i proobably will) then i call one of you guys out, and hey presto, buisness spreads. always remember,as an Engineer, you are invited to someones property, to perform a service for them. But if the manufacturer places a sticker on the front of the manual reading: This unit is not fit for general installation and is to be installed by a certified engineer only, DO NOT divulge the information in this manual. It is the sole property of xxx ltd and not for general publication. Then hey, i wont . Regards rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Service Engineer Posted June 15, 2006 Author Share Posted June 15, 2006 To every engineer who does not agree to issuing instalation manuals Some agree and some don't. And debating it won't make any difference. At one time in this site's early days, everything was public (even eng manuals). Several Manufacturers took objection to this and kindly asked me to remove them. Objections were also made as to information contained in certain topics and this prompted the creation of the other 50% of these forums that you can not see. Like it or not, We cannot supply Engineer Manuals, and have to draw the line as to the degree of information we make publically viewable. This is the Manufacturers wish, and most of are Trade members are happy to comply with it. ........................................................ Dave Partridge (Romec Service Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheCabbage Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Oh jeys, get the popcorn out.....................You guys are in a tough place, but does it really matter? i mean, look at cars, haynes tell you how to strip a car down to the last bolt, and the last time i looked, cars kill more people than alarm systems. so figure. Lets try this again Car manufacturers Do Not supply engineer manuals or software for their cars. In you want them manuals then you would need to buy a DIY car (Kit Car) Yes as you say, you can Buy a Haynes manual, which by the way is not supplied by the car manufacturers and does not come with the car. If you buy a DIY alarm system it comes with All the MANUALS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superpiper Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 ergo, if its in the box, its the customers. if its not, then they can't have it. and its not yours to give? Wonder what a manufacturers responce to this hot topic is? anyone asked???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranger Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 ergo, if its in the box, its the customers.if its not, then they can't have it. and its not yours to give? Wonder what a manufacturers responce to this hot topic is? anyone asked???? Obviously the manufacturers are not happy for the public domain to have engineer manuals, hence asking Dave, quite rightly, to not display them on this site. When the manual is in the box and bought by install companys, the engineer manual is in there for the ENGINEER to install. A copy of the user manual is in there for the company to give to their client. Just because it was shipped with the manual INSIDE the box, doesnt mean it has anything to do with the customer. You buy the system from the installer, NOT the manufacturer and therefore you are buying the system as the installer wants to sell it to you. Regardless of what it was like when the manufacturer sold it to them. Ranger The above is my personal opinion and not that of my employer or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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