arfur mo Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 we only fit them in petrol stations, so no one is on site when its set, this is why every input is intruder. this is why we don't need a break glass. its not a huge maglock, just enough to remind them the system is still set. its not used to secure the door. TBH i think it offers much better security, no detectors on the entry route for a start so conf signaling is almost instant. we also fit bandits and false alarms were using up a lot of the contents. i cant see any problems with this system. hi tinnitus, must admit my comment was really for houses where my main market is, and occupied buildings. but thinking about it, as that lock could possibly engage due to a fault on the alarm system, you still need to fit an EMX break glass unit i think at least to be safe. it could be a child or disabled person inside when it fails suddenly, who then may not have the strength to pull open the door, even on those mini mag-lock's. i'm not 'popping' at you or doing an 'Angus', just a bit concerned. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 hi tinnitus,must admit my comment was really for houses where my main market is, and occupied buildings. but thinking about it, as that lock could possibly engage due to a fault on the alarm system, you still need to fit an EMX break glass unit i think at least to be safe. it could be a child or disabled person inside when it fails suddenly, who then may not have the strength to pull open the door, even on those mini mag-lock's. i'm not 'popping' at you or doing an 'Angus', just a bit concerned. regs alan er doesnt that argument apply to a chubb lock too - apart from the mags been fail safe the mags we use have little more power than a roller catch does , ended up not bothering with em in the end they were that useless Angus ( lol - doing an angus ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinnitus Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 hi tinnitus,must admit my comment was really for houses where my main market is, and occupied buildings. but thinking about it, as that lock could possibly engage due to a fault on the alarm system, you still need to fit an EMX break glass unit i think at least to be safe. it could be a child or disabled person inside when it fails suddenly, who then may not have the strength to pull open the door, even on those mini mag-lock's. i'm not 'popping' at you or doing an 'Angus', just a bit concerned. regs alan lol, i know your not having a pop. the mags need power to be applied and the panel only applies power through a relay when its set. also, they have a back fire door. anyway, im late for work, why am i here again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 er doesnt that argument apply to a chubb lock too - apart from the mags been fail safe the mags we use have little more power than a roller catch does , ended up not bothering with em in the end they were that useless Angus ( lol - doing an angus ) Hi Angus, not really imo, the mags are fail safe but will hold if 'commanded' by the alarm panel, if it it go's errant the door is held. my view is on normal mags you have to fit an EMX device for safety reasons, and agreed these 'alarm' ones are low hold, but enough to stop frail persons or someone blinded or chocked by smoke from opening the door, or believing they are locked in not realising if they could pull a bit harder it will give. the mortise lock would have to be manually turned with a key or thumb turn to engage it, unless it's the latch type with no handle fitted on the inside, but they are rare with a contact in. when it comes to plastic or metal doors your down to a maglock or if lucky and can fit one a latch with electric release. when all this come about, i pondered if installing a yale lock onto a monitored keep (the type with a small button in the receiver) would comply, i figured when opening normally with a key it would start the entry timer which is like a chubb lock operation, or if using a fob without the key would unlock the release on a successful valid 'read' when the alarm is deactivated to so allow access as needed, then safety can be provided by the night latch thumb turn. for a house part set is an issue in all this, and i'm not sure if the final door has to be held by the alarm in part set to comply with APCO? regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 lol, i know your not having a pop. the mags need power to be applied and the panel only applies power through a relay when its set. also, they have a back fire door. anyway, im late for work, why am i here again? hi tinnitus, lol, your back because it's an interesting thread, well i think it is the rear fire door is obviously good news, but this starts to get a bit 'grey' and nothing to do with my advanced age either, but if the main door is also considered as a fire exit, even if it's not but has a sign above it, imo it has to have a safety exit device fitted. it's not about the simplicity of the controlling circuitry, my example is if you installed a simple keypad for access unless you have a physical safety means of overriding it in case of failure i.e. a paddle, crash bar or thumb turn, you have to fit the EMX as well in my opinion (am i turning into my 'son'? ) regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinnitus Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 hi tinnitus,lol, your back because it's an interesting thread, well i think it is the rear fire door is obviously good news, but this starts to get a bit 'grey' and nothing to do with my advanced age either, but if the main door is also considered as a fire exit, even if it's not but has a sign above it, imo it has to have a safety exit device fitted. it's not about the simplicity of the controlling circuitry, my example is if you installed a simple keypad for access unless you have a physical safety means of overriding it in case of failure i.e. a paddle, crash bar or thumb turn, you have to fit the EMX as well in my opinion (am i turning into my 'son'? ) regs alan i agree arfur it is interesting and thanks for replying it is a grey area and i think it comes down to probability and the needs of the customer. its not probable the panel will malfunction and supply 12v through a psu and relay while a fire is blazing in the shop as an old disabled woman struggles with the door. it might happen but the customer has specked this system and as such we have no responsibility. the fire officer also has no problem with it so it can probably be considered OK. as for the argument for/against external readers and pin codes, this goes for the reader. higher security, no contest. please take me to task arfur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F C E Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 is that not why you wire doors as fail safe open so that when/if cable fails the door fail safes open? regs Adam <worries he's turning into arfur making no sense> All comments in this post are my own views and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinnitus Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 is that not why you wire doors as fail safe open so that when/if cable fails the door fail safes open?regs Adam <worries he's turning into arfur making no sense> this only locks with power applied, that power is applied through a relay triggered buy an output on a euro meridian programmed as final set any(0022 or 0220 i think). so its even safer than fail safe. its only powered when its set, no one on site. check out the topic with the poll attached and maybe this could be the starting topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 hi tinnityus i'm not out the shred you or anyone else in any way, this is just how i see it and how i would operate i agree arfur it is interesting and thanks for replyingit is a grey area and i think it comes down to probability and the needs of the customer. it's not a improbability but the possibility that needs addressing (imo). its not probable (but possible in say a lightning strike or when siemens change over the meter tails ) the panel will malfunction and supply 12v through a psu and relay while a fire is blazing in the shop you have to fit an EMX device and a fail safe release when you fit a simple keypad to a fire exit door, unless you have a mechanical overide, invariably this is also required to be linked to the fire alarm usually by the fire officer. as an old disabled woman struggles with the door. it might happen (thats the issue) but the customer has specked this system and as such we have no responsibility. i don't agree, and unless you get this in writing against your best advice you could be held responsible for bad advice god forbid an accident did happen. if you can be sued for If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinnitus Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Don't worry arfur its always in writing under the deviations section. this section is where the customer agrees to deviate from relevant standards and thus not comply in order to get the system they spec. when it comes to national accounts they get what they ask for after we advise not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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