246 replies to this topic

[Service Engineer]

Due to recent Discussions with certain Alarm manufacturers I am beginning to change my views as to whether I should supply Installation Manuals to users who request them.

My view until recently was that If they owned the Alarm System, then they were entitled to the manuals belonging to it, and to an extent i still believe this to be an owners right.

But......there are valid reasons why the Alarm Owners should not have access to them:

1: The supply of engineering information to end users can be seen to compromise the integrity of the system - especially in the eyes of the installation company who is under contract to maintain the system. Whilst this is especially true where remote signalling in use, the principle is true for all maintained systems - and can actually affect the relationship between us installers, the users and the manufacturers.

2: Manufacturers will not provide any kind of support for an end user contacting them. If they have a maintenance contract, they should be dealing with the installation company, not the manufacturer. Even if they do not have any contact with the alarm installer, the equipment is designed specifically for professional intallation engineers, so there could be serious health & safety implications for anyone giving any advice to unqualified persons that includes removing equipment covers or getting on a ladder (ie most advice!) - whether this is done by 'phone or in writing (ie manuals).


So Here`s the Question guys, and this is aimed at all installers who read the forums as well as Alarm Owners.

Shall we as a forum, provide Engineer manuals to the Alarm User....?

Please Vote and Also leave any comments. Stating wether your an installer oe Alarm user.

[Service Engineer]

Your Right Putbinoot, But in your case your probably a competant sparky with a limited knowledge of Alarm Systems, so i`d probably use my judgement and send you the manual you require, but lets say Mr Joe Average asked for the Installer manual because he fancied a go at adding a sensor, or moving the panel out of the hall and into the garage, how would I feel if he electricuted himself, or if his attempt at adding sensors caused a panel fault and his house caught fire..?

Hope you can appreciate my concerns.

[Service Engineer]

Im not even sure what the legal issues may be, im assuming the manuals are all public domain and as such are free to distribute, but are they .. ?

Also legally does anyone know exactly where I/WE stand as to the regards of any legal repurcussions concerning advice, reccomendations or distribution of manuals..?


And where do we draw the line, there`s a massive difference in the programming complexity of an Optima G3 and a Galaxy 512 for instance.

[Service Engineer]

As an Installer all i can say is that we always leave the Installation Manual on-site, firstly because it IS the customers property, and secondly because if we should ever send an engineer not familliar with the panel then he would know a copy is on-site.

Obviousely we keep the Engineer code a secret, but we are willing to change it should a customer decide he no longer wants to use us.


And thanks Dale, that would be helpful.

[Service Engineer]

Quote

any installer that give s the customer the manual is leaving themselves wide open for a law suit

Dont be silly Pete, if you dont give the customer the Installer manual, your pinching part of the product they have purchased. We always have left the Installer manual on-site, right next to or very near to the control panel, we even tell the customer where it is and advise them not to mess. We just show them how to use the alarm system, and go through the finer points of the user manual. In my 10 years in the industry i have never known a customer mess with the settings of his alarm without my knowledge.

And Dale is correct, we never give out the Engineer code, so if the panel was crashed we`d know about it, also the log (if applicable) is a wealth of information.

[morph]

I agree with Peter on this one, if the customer is under contract then they shoudn't recieve the engineers manual.

You have to consider why we all pay large amounts of money for Insurance, Failure to perform and Efficacy etc. We all pay this because we have top protect our companies from that one time possible claim" I was out and I got broken into My alarm didn't go off"

We all have to install systems that best meet the level of risk of the property and most importantly we should even consider the customer as a risk, after all if they fail to set the system or isolate zones inadvertantly, they they are as dangerous as the potential burlar as well.

If we provide engineering manuals to customers from day of the install then this is another element of the risk. Its fair to say that the average customer isn't that interested in all the fancy functions that a modern panel offers other than set unset, but there is always the few that are and these are the ones that will always be willing to experiment. Even although you don't leave the engineer code with the customer, most customers stay with when you first enter the property and watch you entering engineering mode. It doesn't matter how good you are at entering your code there is always the one occasion when you don't and the client has the number, even if its not the full code theres not that many combinations to work out. The apprentice enters the code in full view of the client!! Old engineer friends with the client.
Unless you randoomly change your code or have a code of the day facillity then its not that hard to find out.

Okay lets say thave got the manual, and spotted your code. Made some small changes to the systems operation, but it still functions okay. If we visist only once every six months and they set/unset once a day. Unless they have a high end panel the logs unlikely to show anything. How would you know?

The European and inspection body rules will require us to complete a formal Risk Assessment for every property we install in. Will you record here that you left an engineers manual on site. I dont think so. Is this a risk to the systems integrity..Yes. It used to be that if a system was broken into, some insurance companies would request a log printout or in extreme circumsatnces the nvm from the panel. But the customer made changes to the system programming no reccord in the log...who is laiable for the system failure. I know who the insurance company will want to claim against.

Manufacturers.. The high end panels don't come with manuals, just a simple defaults sheet. Indeed some manuafcturesr insist on being trained by them before they will give you support.

In short if the system is under contract and/or monitored then they should not recieve the manual.

A lot of the users who access this forum only require low end panle manuals, and if they were to require monitoring would have to be upgraded if they were to be monitored. So they would have to contact a local alarm company anyway. Most of them wouldn't want the system maintained anyway.

And Petes also right in saying you can tell about peoples abillity when they ask a question.

When you buy a car you don't get the workshop manual, special tools and computer to access the Engine Management system........Why is this.....Same argument I think..................but common sense prevails.

If the system isn't maintained and the customer signs a disclaimer then this would probably cover you for a bells only. But as we are all in business to earn a living, building long term relationships with clients is far easier.


As far as this site goes, Its great for us installers but I think there should be a detailed legal disclaimer that every member must agree to access the site, that say that the information is provided foc and as such the provider doesn't accept any liabillity for the use of any information provided or opinion expressed.

Bit of a hot potatoe this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Colin.

[Service Engineer]

NSI Systems Silver Scheme states that information on all the equipment used by the installing company should be available to the service engineers and installing teams at all times.

Surely the best way to ensure this is to leave all the information relevant to each site actually on-site. Or are your engineers carrying the installation manuals around for absolutely all the equipment they have installed..?


And allthough good I dont agree with the CAR analogy, a better description may be having someone come to install a new piece of hardware on your computer, lets say a Printer, he installs it for you, then takes your software with him but leaves you the user guide. Its not quite right is it..?

[Service Engineer]

I must admit our manuals are kept inside the the panel (manual & panel permitting) or very close by inside a plastic sleeve with any of the other paperwork that we keep onsite such as wiring schedule and historic records etc.

But the customer knows where it is, there is no chance of the customers quesing or knowing our Engineers codes, and where possible they are locked into the panel, so a full reset would be fruitless.

I`ve deleted any installer manuals i had linked too on the forums, and over the next few days shall be removing any left on the server (there arent many), dont know quite what to do about the dual user/installer manuals..?


Anyway looks like were sorted, ill trust the moderators to only supply manuals to other engineers, and hope we all show good judgement regarding who and what information we supply to Mr Joe Public.

This does pose a few other problems though, so from now on the Panel Defaulting Methods forum and the Installers & Engineers Forum shall only be viewable by members known to be in the trade, or of proven competancy.


Any further comments....?