advancedprotection Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I have been called out to a couple of monitored customers who are having comms problems. we have changed a few pcb's but are still getting the same problems. our customers are getting anoyed with us but we are trying to prove that its not our fault but the fault of a third party. how do other people sort this out ? Trade Member It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice!! Martin Hanfo CCTV - Intruder Alarms - Access Control - Security Lighting - Locks Covering South Wales 07903 967045 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antinode Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 What kind of problems? Line faults? No signals recieved? Might be better in the trade forums I think! Trade Member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I have been called out to a couple of monitored customers who are having comms problems. we have changed a few pcb's but are still getting the same problems. our customers are getting anoyed with us but we are trying to prove that its not our fault but the fault of a third party. how do other people sort this out ? i assume the problem is with didgicoms. BT exchanges run a regular tests on all pstn lines to pre-em'pt fault calls, this can cause line fault errors, so contact BT and ask for the line fault auto testing to be removed from the affected lines regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 post got repeated alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advancedprotection Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 would these tests be random or scheduled? because some of our customers report having itermittent faults and others are random Trade Member It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice!! Martin Hanfo CCTV - Intruder Alarms - Access Control - Security Lighting - Locks Covering South Wales 07903 967045 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 would these tests be random or scheduled? because some of our customers report having itermittent faults and others are random tends to be at a regular ish! time but may not every day. so might depend on the size of the exchange as to how often the tests are run. get onto bt faults in that area and ask is best unless set to high security line faults should not cause alarms when set, but local bleep or int sounders when unset. the panel log should give you the times the fault occurs, and if in fact it is a line fault that was detected. setting the clock accurately will make zeroing in easier. some panels allow you to alter the 'fault window' perammeter, if so an option is to increase the delay before a line fault is actually signaled, obviously depends on the type of job you protecting if this is prudent. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 would these tests be random or scheduled? because some of our customers report having itermittent faults and others are random Martin, Be sure to update us when you figure out what has been causing the problems. Also, it would be interesting to find out how easy (or difficult) it is to update the 21CN guys at BT so that they can enter your case into their database of known issues. This will affect the failure rate statistics on which many in the security industry are keeping a watchful eye You didn't say whether your customers were experiencing line faults or failure to communicate ??? Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
advancedprotection Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 only line faults, the panel i use only shows a line fault if the voltage is missing for more than 10 seconds. when i go out to the site the system will communicate with G4 no problem at all. Trade Member It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice!! Martin Hanfo CCTV - Intruder Alarms - Access Control - Security Lighting - Locks Covering South Wales 07903 967045 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 only line faults, the panel i use only shows a line fault if the voltage is missing for more than 10 seconds. when i go out to the site the system will communicate with G4 no problem at all. you could actually have an intermittent line, take a decent butt or wired bog standard handset with you to site or get the client to plug one in, make a call to the office tell them to be quiet and listen carefull for say 5 minutes for interference (crackle and pop's). another option, if they have another line swap it over for 14 days or for a period more than you have problems, if all go's quiet then the line is likely the problem may not be using a snotty nosed calibrated meter method - but it's well worth a go and what i would do regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smart Electrics Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Contact the service provider and have the line marked as an Alarm line. This will eliminate testing by the exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastings Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 A colleague and I attended a presentation run by Southern Monitoring Services last week regarding 21CN and it's implications. Most of it seemed to be a sales pitch by CSL (DualCom), Emizon21, Redcare and WebWayOne. There were a few interesting parts regarding compatability with digital communicators, the BT website mentions that during the switch over, line fault activations will occur, but should only happen once. South Wales is the 'test area' for 21CN in the UK apparently so you may well be getting more problems there. There may be possible problems with some digital communicators after the switchover, they made the comparison of trying to connect a digi com to the 'free' phone line that you get on most home routers now. As most of you will know, you can plug a normal telephone into this socket and make a voice call, but if you try to run a fax or credit card machine or digi through it, it doesn't always work. Our ARC uses 0870 as a prefix for it's reciever numbers, other changes to BT services may well require a change to 0844 as a prefix instead. (loads of phone numbers to reprog on routine maints then!) My colleague and I both left the presentation with a bit of a headache ! More problems to follow I'm sure ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topalarms Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 More problems to follow I'm sure ! What's new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 the BT website mentions that during the switch over, line fault activations will occur, but should only happen once. There's that word again - SHOULD South Wales is the 'test area' for 21CN in the UK apparently so you may well be getting more problems there. There are only 8 people that live in South Wales aren't there. Not much strain on the network there then. There may be possible problems with some digital communicators after the switchover, they made the comparison of trying to connect a digi com to the 'free' phone line that you get on most home routers now. As most of you will know, you can plug a normal telephone into this socket and make a voice call, but if you try to run a fax or credit card machine or digi through it, it doesn't always work. Finally - we are getting to the nitty gritty. More problems to follow I'm sure ! Nooooooo - BT have advised the industry that everything SHOULD be fine. Any word from NSI or SSAIB yet ? - Surely there's an opportunity for them to make some money out of this. Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hastings Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 BSIA have this page on their website. Tells you nothing though ! http://www.bsia.co.uk/LY8WLW49550_action;d...0_backlinktype; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 BSIA have this page on their website. Tells you nothing though ! That's because nobody has a clue what's going on ! Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 just found a bullet in from Gardtec, they have been trialling there communicators which all operate ok. the audiable signals will be multiplexed, so i think the cure is to extend the tone time windows to overcomes the delays in switching. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billythebellbox Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 That's because nobody has a clue what's going on ! the BSIA always have thier finger in the pulse De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da. De Do Do Do, De Da Da Da Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 just found a bullet in from Gardtec, they have been trialling there communicators which all operate ok. the audiable signals will be multiplexed, so i think the cure is to extend the tone time windows to overcomes the delays in switching. regs alan but then it doesnt comply with regs (so I`m told) BT know the tests are flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 but then it doesnt comply with regs (so I`m told) BT know the tests are flawed hi Angus, are you saying GT's digis are not compliant if so any idea why? or did you mean slowing/extending the tx rate because it would be seen as a slightly backwards step, more like the older 'slow format'. would be odd as we are talking say 1 - 2 seconds more delay at most, but better chance of a successful communication 1st time over the 'media' path being supplied. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfur mo Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 surely the simplest work-a-round is for bt to have in their software a 'step' which prevents multiplexing for devices which issue an 'enquiery' tone? would save all this hassle at a single stroke. regs alan If you think education is difficult, try being stupid!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 hi Angus,are you saying GT's digis are not compliant if so any idea why? or did you mean slowing/extending the tx rate because it would be seen as a slightly backwards step, more like the older 'slow format'. would be odd as we are talking say 1 - 2 seconds more delay at most, but better chance of a successful communication 1st time over the 'media' path being supplied. regs alan just doesnt comply with the time limitations as far as I have been told - something jitter ? is the main problem, but as you know I dont really do tech, I`m more a hit it with a hammer type of guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 just found a bullet in from Gardtec, they have been trialling there communicators which all operate ok. Of course they operate OK - there is nobody using 21CN yet. The network is perfect and running at peak performance. OMG - it's like the blind leading the blind. the audiable signals will be multiplexed, so i think the cure is to extend the tone time windows to overcomes the delays in switching. Wrong. The cure is to convert to equipment that has been designed from the outset to work over IP. Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 surely the simplest work-a-round is for bt to have in their software a 'step' which prevents multiplexing for devices which issue an 'enquiery' tone?would save all this hassle at a single stroke. Let's think about that for a moment. Optimise the network for crystal clear voice and keep tens of millions of customers happy or change it to suit a few hundred thousand digis and jeopordise our "Digi Replacement Strategy" ? Arf - there is no BT software, the network runs on SIP. The problems only occur when the network is under load and try as you may - it cannot be fixed. Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest anguscanplay Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Of course they operate OK - there is nobody using 21CN yet. The network is perfect and running at peak performance.Wrong. The cure is to convert to equipment that has been designed from the outset to work over IP. I typed both of those points then thought better LOL, by designed from the start are we asuming you mean your adaptor or a whole ground up new way of thinking? I`ve heard some "panel free" ideas been talked about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPAlarms Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I typed both of those points then thought better LOL, by designed from the start are we asuming you mean your adaptor or a whole ground up new way of thinking? Not just my adapters - those of Emizon, Webway, Chiron and Terrier too. A new way of thinking would be nice too. Problem is, a lot of us have been inside the security box for far too long to think that there may possibly be better things outside of it. I`ve heard some "panel free" ideas been talked about ...and from my experience - probably laughed about too. Here's my angle on this - and I'd like to hear yours too (promise I won't laugh). I will use my Alarm Management software product as an example. Going back a few years, we used to write MS Windows applications and send them out on floppy disks and later CD's to our customers. A year down the road when Microsoft updated Windows and advised us that all the programs we had sold would no longer work on the newer version, we had to send out updates to each of our customers. (They have just done it again with Vista) Then some bright spark threw the internet at us and gave us this clunky thing called a browser ( - there's no way that puppy was going to take off). Then Microsoft said - why not write your program just the once, plonk it on a server and have all your customers connect to that server when they use your software ? Yeah - like that's going to happen !!! Well, strangely enough the banks started offering internet banking, a weird looking thing called Google appeared and all of a sudden it became a reality. Now when we make a change to our software, it is made once on the server and the customer usually does not even get to know about it. And they all lived happily ever after. Getting back to the "panel-less" alarm system - it is now so easy to store all the system parameters on a server. Our IP board for one could easily operate as an alarm panel leaving only the bare minimum of settings within the board itself. The downsides will come flooding in, so I will just mention a couple of the upsides... 1. Programming. Done via a web browser from an experienced person rather than a tired, stressed junior installer after a hard days graft. 2. Software upgrades. No need to attend site next time ACPO move the goal posts. ... and so on... Free Alarm Monitoring over the Internet from IP Alarms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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